Do

 

Dont

 

Exhaust and Intake make no real power yet. I havent seen anyone post any real gains from an aftermarket exhaust nor adding a intake to a MR2. I believe the reason for this is the MR2's relatively short exhaust piping which stock provides a much shorter distance than other layouts. Also the stock airbox is in a well vented area. But on the other hand this should make it where a MR2 has 5hp more than its Celica counterpart but no evidence supports that.

I think progress can be made though. No one really makes a full exhaust system for the NA MR2. I know KO makes one but at 2.5 piping and the short length kills all low end tq. I think a proper 2" size exhaust with a single exit/canister/muffler would provide the best gains. Also lots of people dont have the factory y pipe that finishes the factory 4-2-1 headers. Most opt to make their own with improper lengths or collector or make it 1 pipe. I made sure I got this part even though my motor didnt come with it. Cost me almost $300 with shipping from Japan!

On the Intake side I not sure if improvements can be made. The stock airbox is in a position to receive plenty of cool airflow. Perhaps one can make a better flowing system that may provide a small gain. I know on the BEAMS one person made 15whp on a dyno with a aftermarket cone filter. But others have experienced problems and possible hp loss from using the same filter. At this time it is deemed a 1 time occurrence. And the BEAMS AFM is a very picky unit that does not like changes making R&D into a better intake a little harder.

 

The record for highest HP 3S-GE belongs to a man by the name Glenn from Australia with a Blacktop BEAMS. His last figures actually are 190kw which translate to 255whp which roughly would be over 300hp on the flywheel.

He wants to hit the 200kw mark but doesn't believe he will as he has every possible modification done.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams/Toyota-MR2-34027-new-dyno-figures.html

 

With the beams, one guy seemed to gain a few hp with an aftermarket ecu. He made 185hp. Nice thing is, with a few changes, you can use the 1zzfe powerfc with this engine.

There might be some gains to be made with an aftermarket vvti controller.

 

Gen2 Mods: 91mm 5S crank (stroker), 86.5mm 11.5:1 CP pistons, Engle Valve springs, OBX 4-1 long tube header, full 2.5 mandrel bent straight through exhaust, generic intake pipe, stock factory fuel and ignition, Stock ECU- no tune on the engine at all

made 161whp 144wtq on a stock ECU with a leaking headgasket consuming 1qt in about 3days and consuming coolant

161 wheel is a big improvment over the factory 165 FLYwheel, ive read on the OC.UK that the 3SGE head turns into a bottleneck whenever you stroke the motor but ive yet to see proof.. aparently my head is flowing well enough to nearly put to the wheels what its rated at the fly with only pistons and a bump in stroke :dontknow:

i have a set of 269*/8.8 cams that im building a head for but i might stick them in the 3SGE head to see the difference between them and the stock 244*/8.5's to see the gains


-Tad

 

Lets look at fat.. I made aprox 20whp by using a 5s block and 11:5 86.7mm pistons on the stock ECU and no other mods. I later on added injectors (440cc), HKS header, cams, MSD Digital 6 from the 6AL and head work on the stock ECU, I am thinking about going back to the dyno on the stock ECU before tuning to see how much WHP I made then pulling it off and going with the EMS.

I made aprox 150-160WHP before and expect on the stock ECU 30-40 more WHP. So aprox 190-200WHP on the stocker.

 

that hardest part of this is the total lack of info and proof- not to cut anyone down here {eazy} but its hard to say i made this much or that much power without a dyno {once again this wasnt made to put anyone down at all} this going a lil off topic but what are we having problems building power hints a 2.2 liter 5sge/3sge making 160whp yet 1.8 liter hondas are making much much more power than that? another issue may be the lack of info on cams, ind throttle bodys-ect ect- somthing that has been done time and time again on other motors

 

your right.. we dont have dyno proof.. the main Honda issue is that number one you cant compare a VTEC engine to a non VTEC engine in the Honda world. you cant compare any K-series to a B-series because they have VTEC and Variable Cam timing, its a whole different world.

But hey.. At the end of the day.. If the MR2 community consisted of NA engines only we would have made 200+WHP a long time ago.. But since a turbo and a bolt on DYI boost controller can net 200+?WHP its a no brainer when considering money to HP..

Lets look at the BEAMS.. the TRD engine made 198KW(269WHP) @ 8600 if i had that i would be good. Its not that its not attainable, we are just not putting the right eggs in out baskets. I blame us for not doing the research rather than anyone else.

Even the 4AGE guys are having problems getting over 200WHP but the Formula Atlantic ver made 240WHP @ like 9+k, i have never see any NA LS non VTEC 1.8 do that..

I m sure we would never convince any of the venders on this forum to invest any time into the NA engines with manifolds, cams, fuel mods or anything on a dyno because when they get their first dyno pull and see anything less than 200WHP they will give up and scrap the idea. This is why WE need to come together and do the research ourselves and put our ideas together.

So lets list the mods /Gen that made you dyno power and see what we can come up with..

 

hondas FLOW especially the Kseries.. not to mention the valvetrain is on rollers which helps exract every bit of power

im with eazy about it being on us to push the bar and that is exactly why i have a complete GTE swap in my garage and insted of putting it in my car, i harvested the head off of it to further my 3SGE build, i really want to see what you can do with these motors on the mild side of things

i dont have printouts of my dynos cause i had it done at a dynoday for 35$ but i plan on getting it done again since my headgasket isnt leaking anymore but anyway, for eazy...

3SGE gen2 165bhp Factory (i dont know what factory torque is rated)
+11.5:1 Comp Ratio 86.5mm
+91mm stroke
____________
161hp @ the wheels
144tq @ the wheels

the motor loved either the pistons or the stroke :dontknow:


tred get your ish together an on the dyno lol

 

I think it loved the stroke.

Also the Formula Atlantic is a strict race motor that would suck balls to drive on the street and costs about 10k new from toysports. Also it was 240hp on the flywheel not the wheels.

But overall I agree we need a bigger push for aftermarket parts. If we gather enough interest I know easily someone could make a header esp for gen2 guys since they would also share a market with 5SFE owners. Only thing is most people are not willing to pay the money associated with all that. I willing to pay 1k for a proper manifold most are not.

 

I think the best thing is to start with the engine that already produces the desired result. That's the nice thing about the 3sge. The gen2, gen3, and the beams are all relatively cheap. So, you can be up to 175whp (200hp atc) without resorting to aftermarket parts or any other modifications.


Maybe eazy can tell me this since he's the only one I know of who's just basically slapped a 3sge head on a 5sfe bottom end. But basically, what exactly do you end up with if you do this? I would imagine the result would be an interference motor, but any idea of the compression rate?

With a beams head you would probably make 200whp assuming your comp was still over 10:1. For the beams, you'd also have to drill oil passages for the vvti.

It's been argued that a stroked beams would be less than ideal with the longer stroke. Square engines rev a little better, but really, the beams isn't all that high revving anyway. Not compared to a 2zzge or a 20v, or any of the honda motors.

 

i really dont see how vtec has any part in this whole making power game, if you are fimiler with how vtec really works that you know that it already uses the larger loab on the cam shaft at high rpm- {where your power will be made} so with our engines using a larger loab cam should yeild the same power high end as the honda ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcT_ZyY3F0k
if a non vtec engine was build the same in every way other than the cam shafts as a vtec engine, but the non vtec has the same size cam loab as the vtec one did {the loab in green on this video} after 5K rmp wouldent they make the exact same power? i dont see why vtec has anything to do with power other than low vs high end

 

A cam generally moves the overall powerband up in the revrange. Usually more aggressive cams add top end at the expense of the bottom end.

With a secondary cam profile, the vtec motors can run a very aggressive cam without impacting the bottom end nearly as much. You could run single profile cams with a 3sge that equaled the vtec 4500rpm+ cam, but the motor would be absolutely dead off the line. Not ideal for a street car.

It's all of course meant to manipulate cam overlap. Personally I think VVTI does a better job at this. With vtec you get two overlap settings. With vvti, you get continuously variable overlap. The disadvantage is you really only get duration variation. Vtec gives you duration and lift.

If I have to choose between VTEC and VVTI, I take VVTI. A vtec motor will make more peak hp, but the vvti motor will be more even performing.

 

thats my point though, the big power is made high rpm, not low, so using a larger cam like the ones of the honda should still build big power even with out vtec- i understand the low end power thing but im talking high hp high rpm


i would love to see a beams head on a high compression sleeved 5sfe block- but it seems like we are forever away from there

 

That's the point. If you're not making any power until 5000rpms or 25mph, your overall 0-60, quarter mile, etc.... is going to suffer badly. It'll be worse in a mk2 mr2 as it's not all that light and you do need torque.

 

that is true, another think we have over the hondas is torque- at least stock for stock, so lets turn this discussion towards the head, we all know the cam options, comp, hks, ect ect- however what are we really going to need to make lets say 240 to the wheels? with that we shoudl be using the gte aftermarket valve train parts but what would be the best- eazy and i talked about using different cams as welllike a 272 intake and a 264 exhaust- he has some good info on this that i would love to hear more about-

also comparing heads, the 3sgte head intakes are a lot bigger- much much bigger- would there be a benifit to these over the 3sge head? stock for stock as well as p&p on both- or would the larger intake ports hurt power? i know its pretty easy to hurt power porting if you do it wrong- i would love to hear more about this as well


man so many things to cover- i think this will be a great take off for some people starting and contuning there builds

 

How many degrees of adjustability does the stock red top's VVTi provide?

-Dan!!

 

I don't know about single cam vvti, but the 4age 20v gives 30 degrees.


Actually, it looks like single cam vvti gives 30 degrees as well. Dual vvti gives 45.

 

eazy and i talked about using different cams as welllike a 272 intake and a 264 exhaust- he has some good info on this that i would love to hear more about

start off with this..

Finding The Right Cams For A 3S-GE HELP
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=152693

and in the end same size cams are better.. sorry.. no time to read and reply tonight.. but please take 20 mins and read this thread..

 

Something i found interesting in the eazys cam thread

"""Intake Duration @ .050 Recommended CR
210 8.5-9.5:1
210-220 9-9.5:1
220-230 10:1
230-240 10.5-11:1
240 and up 11:1 or greater"""

the gen2 factory runs 10:1/244 so according to this scale my 1.5 bump in compression is putting those 244cams near their sweet spot, yeah? would that explain the bump in power on a stock ecu??

 

I am pretty sure I found a link to this article on here somewhere, I am not sure though. It is from www.roadandtrack.net.au and deals with modifying the 3SGE.

http://stu.cbu.edu/~azysk/3sge.pdf

If there are any difficulties viewing, or a problem with me hosting this file, let me know! Hopefully this may help the discussion.

 

we also need some of theres

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=658&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

i dont think the rwd one will fit in our mr2s

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=659&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

also would 3sgte cams fit on 3sge motor ???

 

one thing that was interesting in the road and track article was they said you should use a 80mm exhaust piping which is around 3" every one uses 2.25" for n/a motors. I emailed them, they said its correct and it will work fine. Some one should try a 3" exhaust and see what gains they get?

 

I know the Kseries guys are running 3inch but it really moves your torque to the right which isnt fun but i guess if youre shooting for peak hp then low rpm toqrue is something youll have to give up

i would run one for the hell of it but the only problem is every header on the market that will fit the gen2 only has a 2.5 collector so a custom header would be needed (which we NEED anyway)

is anyone good at working metal??