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JimKing said:
That's amazing. But of course in Calif. you're only allowed to use a 1MZ + S/C to legally achieve approx the same performance, but you only get about 26mpg highway. :rolleyes: :sigh:

really? I got about 29 mpg on I-5 cruising at 90 when I had the trd sc

maybe cause I had much larger than stock tires :p
 
uspspro said:
Damn 3.944!!

At least the S51 has decently tall gears 2-5 (tall gear is 0.731)

I want the S54 1st gear installed in my S51 .... then I get this:
http://mr2.phpwerx.net/turbocalc/ge...uTz2tvErQHbHKIvC+iyEP9N/pHDWUM1gSqzJTIELl1sCigCHIHP4A6ffex1ufBs9x+7WuixHgEAAA==
The S series did have a 3.737 ratio in the older Celicas, but those output shafts are no longer compatible with the newer transaxles made after about 05/1990. It used a 19 tooth pinion gear mated to a 71 tooth ring gear. 71/19 = 3.7368. The S51 uses an 18 tooth pinion gear, and the S54 uses a 17 tooth. All three use the a 71 tooth ring gear, just matched for gear lash.

The C series transmissions may have output shaft pinion gear/ring gear options (3.526-3.941), but I highly doubt the actual output shaft will drop right in even though the C and S series share the differential assembly and ring gear.

67/19 = 3.526
67/18 = 3.722
67/17 = 3.941

If the output shaft won't work, why not the ring gear?

I get around 32-34 hwy without the S/C, but city MPG is about 20-23. I average 27-28 MPG with my 1MZ/S51.

And the S series does indeed use gears in the input shaft. My S51 had 1st gear sheared off on the input shaft side from the JY (likely accident damage).
 
I'm getting around 25-26mpg mixed, 27-28 mixed with more highway bias. Lowest i've seen it go is 22.5.
94 1mz, S54 on 205 40 17s bit smaller than stock, so speedo reads a bit higher.
the cam gear on one bank is off a tooth or so on the timing, and my trans is leaky. We'll see how it improves after everything is patched up.
 
so i came across this graph and thought it was rather interesting:

Image


the initial takeaway from that is that you should try to keep your highway RPMs at a max of 3400RPMs.

if we're talking about the MR2 swap with the likely E153 transmission and stock height tires (225/50r15) you're looking at 75mph before getting outside of the high efficiency band.

that said, with the possible 3.625 gears it takes the efficiency band to 89mph

so theoretically, fuel economy should be almost just as good with the stock gearset as the 3.625 gears as long as you don't pass over 75mph. but that's not quite what my experiments have shown.
I'd be very interested to know if the BSFC here and in the contour diagrams refers to the actual amount of fuel combining with oxygen (which is always stoich, with the rest being wasted) or does it refer to the amount of fuel injected by the ECU as governed by the fueling maps. My guess is it has to do with the tune. [In this case the BSFC would have to be corrected by the ratio of the commanded AFR to stoich.] Why this is a question someone would ask is I am seeing whether it is possible to work backward from MAF/airflow numbers to get estimates of Torque/HP versus RPM. The relationship is

Power = MAF/(AFR x BSFC)

Interestingly this relationship is predominantly used to estimate the amount of fuel needed for a given RPM given targets for power and lean/rich level, and not the other way around for estimating power. So again it would appear that if starting with the MAF in order to estimate power, the AFR that goes in here should be stoich for the fuel being used.

Thoughts?

PS> If somebody can give me a log of their actual HP and MAF versus RPM from a dyno run then it would be easy to make a chart of BSFC versus RPM at WOT. This would actually give me a calculation of something that is more practical for my purposes which is a Brake Specific Air Consumption versus RPM which for me would be more useful because I would not have to account for any inefficiencies in fueling.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Frank,

The tunes have so many "two wrongs make a right" spots that I would not trust the MAF value to give you a precise idea of fuel efficiency.

Also, yes, the VVT-I changes that i have made likely affect the BSFC a bit.
 
Frank,

The tunes have so many "two wrongs make a right" spots that I would not trust the MAF value to give you a precise idea of fuel efficiency.

Also, yes, the VVT-I changes that i have made likely affect the BSFC a bit.
Marc, I'm actually not looking at fuel economy. I'm looking at the possibility of an alternative method of estimating HP/TQ based on MAF logs, without a dyno. Other "virtual" dyno methods are inertia-based and make instantaneous force-balance calculations of rate of speed, inertial resistance, and drag, to estimate the torque. With the method that I'm exploring, the calculation is based on the energy production of the engine and its efficiency. The motivation is: "Can I make estimates of power production using the variables that I log while road-tuning (because I don't have a dyno)."

This is all preliminary and needs some refinement. In a nutshell:

1. Start with a log including at the minimum MAF, RPM, AFR. See figure 1. In this instance, I used a OBDLink MX and Torque Pro and logging nine OBD variables plus producing a fairly data-intensive display on-screen, and I'm getting a sampling rate of about 4HZ. I think I can improve this significanly, by limiting the display and the number of variables to log.

2. Chart the csv logs using MegaLogViewer (cheapware). The chart I'm interested in is MAF versus RPM. I can filter out data points that are outside of the range of interest. See Figs. 2 and 3, for raw and filtered charts, respectively. Some improvement in the data quality is possible here.

3. Use a spreadsheet to apply transformations to the filtered data points. The transformations are:

HP = MAF/(AFR x BSFC) [in consistent units]

and

TQ = HP x 5252 / RPM

The result is plotted in Figure 4, where I've also done some rough polynomial curve fitting. These HP and TQ charts seem qualitatively correct in shape and features but they need some work.

The big question is what number to use for BSFC and AFR because as we all know GIGO. I came across this thread while searching for an estimate of BSFC for the 2GR-FE.

In my charts I've used a BSFC of 0.45 lb/min.HP which is the number generally touted for naturally aspirated engines. But I see from the charts you've published here that the 2GR BSFC can vary over the RPM range. Obviously if I use the "best" BSFC from the charts that you've shared here then I get a higher estimate of HP. But what I'm really interested in is the variation of BSFC with RPM.

I believe the fueling conditions in my logs are not that far off from yours - you probably run your tunes a little bit leaner with more timing. See Figures 5 and 6. My WOT hits about 12.0 AFR/25-26 degrees and I'm about to try 12.5AFR/28 degrees if I can approach that with the tools at hand.

As an aside I've come up with a method for identifying fairly accurately the regions of closed loop control versus open loop. This is done by logging one of the STFT's for either bank. As an artifact of OBD2 logging, under open loop, the STFT is reported as zero. See Figure 7.

In the near future, I'll be looking at ways of improving the data-rate of the logs, and improving the accuracy of the power production estimates, and also, trying for some improvements in the fuel and timing maps.
 

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Discussion starter · #27 ·
Using MAF to get an absolute horsepower value works but it isn't super precise. But what it is great for is comparing the same car between improvements as long as you haven't changed the MAF calibration. In fact I use this quite a bit on the initial street tuning before having to pay $100/hr for the dyno time.

I see what you're wanting the BSFC (or MAF vs actual dyno plot) for now. Unfortunately while i have both pieces of data I don't have them in a way that i can associate runs together to give you the same file and my files are from different tuning sessions so the resulting BSFC would be inaccurate.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Still kind of new to the 2gr world...am I supposed to use premium fuel (2007 Sienna donor)?? I googled, but lots of conflicting info.
with the stock tune it just barely helps but it does help. With the latest tune i sell you should use premium but regular will not hurt the motor.
 
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