antilag destroys turbos.. it'll have a DRASTIC effect on power output, you'll be able to hold your max boost constantly.

 

antilag destroys turbos..

Do you know this from first hand experience?

I have first hand experience - everything in the above post is not true.

Please look for my posts in the following thread.

it'll have a DRASTIC effect on power output,

You will be able to be in boost sooner, increasing your power output. Depending on the severity of the anti-lag set-up that may be minimal gains.

you'll be able to hold your max boost constantly.

100% false. In order to use anti-lag the engine needs air and that means that you need to have your throttle pressed or some other mechanism to get get air into the engine. No matter what your settings, you will not get boost with the throttle plate closed.

I haven't looked at the anti-lag that the nemesis uses but I imagine that it is drag-race specific. If that is true, then this is what happens - you rev the engine into a 2-stage rev limiter. Once it is there, (throttle is 100% depressed at this point) the anti-lag setting continue to pump fuel instead of cutting fuel to limit the revs. Also the anti-lag retards the timing, sending still expanding hot gasses into the turbo. Those two things spool the turbo up. It also heats it but if you are in anti-lag for only a couple of seconds before launch, the turbo will not heat up enough to damage it.

 

very interesting... so how does it keep the revs down when you are giving it 100% throttle?

 

You will be able to be in boost sooner, increasing your power output. Depending on the severity of the anti-lag set-up that may be minimal gains.

huh? rally cars can build 20psi of boost sitting at the line..

100% false. In order to use anti-lag the engine needs air and that means that you need to have your throttle pressed or some other mechanism to get get air into the engine. No matter what your settings, you will not get boost with the throttle plate closed.

um.. obviously. i didnt say anything about the throttle plate being closed a solenoid can be used to prop your throttle open.. im not sure how you got off on that tangent. with your foot applying no throttle, the anti lag system will tip the plate open enough to idle out.

the timing can be pulled to ~30 degrees ATDC with the solenoid keeping your throttle open enough not to die out. the combusion takes place while the exhaust valve is open, sending the combustion cycle at the turbo. the turbo goes like hell and you build boost. that kills turbos.

When the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal the ignition timing is altered with sometimes 40? or more of delay (retard) and the intake air and fuel supply mixture is made richer. The inlet butterfly is kept slightly open or an air injector is used to maintain air supply to the engine. This results in air/fuel mixture that keeps getting in the combustion chambers when the driver no longer accelerates. The ignition being delayed, the air/fuel mixture reaches the exhaust tubes mostly unburned. When the spark plug fires, the exhaust valve is starting to open due to the ignition delay mentioned above. Additionally, the exhaust temperature being extremely high, the unburned fuel explodes at the contact of the exhaust tubes. Luckily the turbo sits right there and the explosion keeps it turning (otherwise it would slow down since its intake, the exhaust gases, is cut-off). The effect is vastly lower response times with some downsides:

A quick rise of the turbocharger's temperature (which jumps from ~800?C to the 1100?C+ region) whenever the system is activated

A huge stress on the exhaust manifold and pipes (mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km)

The turbo produces significant boost even at engine idle speeds

The explosions which occur in the exhaust tubes generate important flames which can, sometimes, be seen at the end of the exhaust tube

Racing ALS versions can maintain a pressure of up to 1.5 bar in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed.

every time your foot drops off the pedal, the ecu can enable its antilag system and keep your boost up..
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html

 

TOMMR2, you only proved to me that you have no first hand knowledge of anti-lag by quoting a web page from 1996. Anyone can quote books and web pages, the problem is that without real life experience you don't really understand what is going on. Imagine reading a book on driving having never done it and then explain to someone how to drive.

You are specifically talking about WRC style antilag. That kind of anti-lag requires special equipment on the engine for it to work. None of what you posted has anything to do with anti-lag as is it available in the Nemesis ECU. The anti-lag settings in the Nemesis are for drag racing and getting boost on launch. Yet again I'm going to say that moderate anti-lag settings used for only a couple of seconds at a time are not going to damage your turbo.

The whole purpose of anti-lag is so that you can get power and boost when you want and need it. I have a mild "wrc style" anti-lag set-up on my car and I'm only in anti-lag for 25/100ths of a second when I hit the gas hard and I get full boost (20psi) in 70/100th. I also have the full blown drag style anti-lag set up too.

 

very interesting... so how does it keep the revs down when you are giving it 100% throttle?

One of the things that TomsMR2 got right is that timing is retarded and also can be cut out entirely to keep the RPMs down at full throttle. Imagine only firing a cylinder every fourth time so that 75% of the charge is dumped directly into the exhaust to be ignited there. You're basically down to 25% power at full throttle.

 

any EMS should be able to run an antilag program. what i explained as antilag is infact, antilag. what you're talking about is also antilag.

the type of antilag you personally run isnt the only antilag in the world, and every other kind isnt "100% wrong". you have a specific setup, there are other setups as well.. which im sure the nemisis could support if the operator felt so inclined to run it.

just because you have ran an antilag setup doesnt mean you're the end-of-all god of antilag.

 

i made 3 sentences before you went off on your "you're totally wrong" tangent..
i said

antilag destroys turbos

you disagree.. you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that antilag isnt bad for a turbo. maybe a light setup wont hurt it in the long run.. but it sure as hell isnt doing it any good.
i said

it'll have a DRASTIC effect on power output, you'll be able to hold your max boost constantly.

you agree with me here...

I'm going from 0 to 20psi in about 0.6 seconds.. to try and get better boost at slower regional courses.

id say you're using it to get a power advantage. id also say 0-20psi is pretty drastic! 0-20 psi in .6 seconds is basically holding your max boost constantly, is it not? thats alot of boost, very quick, whenever you need it.

sounds like were saying the same thing..

I have first hand experience - everything in the above post is not true.

come on dude. we're saying the same thing, and you go ahead and say the whole thing isnt true?

 

What I'm saying is that you do not need to destroy the turbo using anti-lag to get big boost in a minimum amount of time. If you read, test, and do things slowly you can get great spool time without damage.

As you keep pointing out - "you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that antilag isnt bad for a turbo. maybe a light setup wont hurt it in the long run.. but it sure as hell isnt doing it any good."

If you want to keep your turbo intact for all of time, put it on a shelf. It's an engine part and will eventually wear out. Running exhaust gasses through it isn't doing it any good.

Like I pointed out in the other thread, you can go swimming and go under the water holding your breath. You can do it for short periods without harm but don't expect to stay underwater forever without drowning. Fire walking is the same deal. You are exposing your body to very hot temperatures for very short periods of time without damage.

My anti-lag set-up is very minimal and is not "drastic" in anyway. Like I mentioned before, I'm in the anti-lag parameters for a very short time.

I don't believe that I am the end-of-all anti-lag God. I know a lot more than the average person and I have experience with it. Not all of my experience agrees with things that have been published.

 

it'll have a DRASTIC effect on power output, you'll be able to hold your max boost constantly.

you agree with me here...

I'm going from 0 to 20psi in about 0.6 seconds.. to try and get better boost at slower regional courses.

id say you're using it to get a power advantage. id also say 0-20psi is pretty drastic! 0-20 psi in .6 seconds is basically holding your max boost constantly, is it not? thats alot of boost, very quick, whenever you need it.

sounds like were saying the same thing..

Actually I don't agree. Having 20psi on tap constantly and having it available in .6 seconds is completely different and would require different hardware.

The thing that I mostly don't agree with you is that you are talking about rally anti-lag and the type of anti-lag being talked about is drag style.

 

Spyder Venom,

The drag racing part is called a 2 step rev limiter with timing retard control. That is what is used on a Nemesis to launch the car with full boost. This is DIFFERENT then anti-lag on the Nemesis.

 

if it is possible fully retard the timing to 0 advance on the 2 step limiter. It works very well. for building boost, but this type of "antilag" is not very good for the turbo, but neither is drag racing. lol

 

As MR2 2NER correctly stated, 2-step "launch control" and "anti-lag" are two separate features both supported on the Nemesis and both having their own particular use. Launch control is a 2-step feature which allows the turbo to be spooled by cutting out a percentage of fuel and spark to keep the engine from reving beyond a desired point lower than the standard rev limit. The purpose of this feature is to improve 60ft times while drag racing. The anti-lag feature is implemented on the Nemesis as a separate set of offset fuel and timing maps that allow more fuel and substantial timing retard (even to the point of retarding spark to ATDC points) along with a setting to allow the idle speed valve to open further than normal to provide the air needed to keep the engine running when the anti-lag maps are engaged. This feature is used to keep the turbo speed high during shifts and turns so that lag is minimized. The aggressiveness and efficacy of this feature is obviously in the hands of the tuner. A mild application can be used to extend turbo life. For hard core racing where turbos are replaced every season, you can get as wild as you want with the anti-lag.

 

Using anti-lag with the 2 step is a highly effective way of building boost at the line when drag racing. You will find most turbo drag cars with a REAL size turbo employ this method to build enough boost to launch. Most drag cars I tune with the AEM 2step/anti lag can build 20psi boost or more at the line in less than 2 seconds, even with a very large laggy turbo. You can very easily adjust how much boost (and therefore how much power at the launch) just by tuning the anti lag.

This is very different than setting up rally style anti-lag, which requires more control on when the cut is initiated and also some method to introduce air into the engine when the throttle is closed. Some of the WRC guys also get some air into the exhaust manifold, which further improves the "explosion" and thus the effectiveness of the anti-lag.


John

 

A mild application can be used to extend turbo life.

How do you do that?

 

I think he's talking about extending turbo life relative to full anti-lag.

 

I am using the 2-step feature on the Nemesis, but not the anti-lag.
For "anti-lag" I slip/ride the clutch in turns to help keep boost/rpms up.
It's not ideal, but it works.

The 2-step rocks :thumbup

 

I agree, mild, medium antilag using the nemesis method, isnt any more harmfull to the turbo than say......being on boost all the time.....

Besides, it is all a trade of, if you want long engine life....dont f*** touch it, leave it stock!
If you like performance, there is only two ways, cheap and short lived(in some instances, cheap can be substituted with stupid), or long and expensive.

T