[eazy2001x]

eazy and i talked about using different cams as welllike a 272 intake and a 264 exhaust- he has some good info on this that i would love to hear more about

start off with this..

Finding The Right Cams For A 3S-GE HELP
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=152693

and in the end same size cams are better.. sorry.. no time to read and reply tonight.. but please take 20 mins and read this thread..

 

[Strokd_GE]

Something i found interesting in the eazys cam thread

"""Intake Duration @ .050 Recommended CR
210 8.5-9.5:1
210-220 9-9.5:1
220-230 10:1
230-240 10.5-11:1
240 and up 11:1 or greater"""

the gen2 factory runs 10:1/244 so according to this scale my 1.5 bump in compression is putting those 244cams near their sweet spot, yeah? would that explain the bump in power on a stock ecu??

 

[XiOus271]

I am pretty sure I found a link to this article on here somewhere, I am not sure though. It is from www.roadandtrack.net.au and deals with modifying the 3SGE.

http://stu.cbu.edu/~azysk/3sge.pdf

If there are any difficulties viewing, or a problem with me hosting this file, let me know! Hopefully this may help the discussion.

 

[angelmon]

we also need some of theres

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=658&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

i dont think the rwd one will fit in our mr2s

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=659&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

also would 3sgte cams fit on 3sge motor ???

 

[angelmon]

one thing that was interesting in the road and track article was they said you should use a 80mm exhaust piping which is around 3" every one uses 2.25" for n/a motors. I emailed them, they said its correct and it will work fine. Some one should try a 3" exhaust and see what gains they get?

 

[Strokd_GE]

I know the Kseries guys are running 3inch but it really moves your torque to the right which isnt fun but i guess if youre shooting for peak hp then low rpm toqrue is something youll have to give up

i would run one for the hell of it but the only problem is every header on the market that will fit the gen2 only has a 2.5 collector so a custom header would be needed (which we NEED anyway)

is anyone good at working metal??

 

[eazy2001x]

Exhaust and Intake make no real power yet. I havent seen anyone post any real gains from an aftermarket exhaust nor adding a intake to a MR2. I believe the reason for this is the MR2's relatively short exhaust piping which stock provides a much shorter distance than other layouts. Also the stock airbox is in a well vented area. But on the other hand this should make it where a MR2 has 5hp more than its Celica counterpart but no evidence supports that.

Then maybe we need to look into adding back pressure??

I think progress can be made though. No one really makes a full exhaust system for the NA MR2. I know KO makes one but at 2.5 piping and the short length kills all low end tq. I think a proper 2" size exhaust with a single exit/canister/muffler would provide the best gains. Also lots of people dont have the factory y pipe that finishes the factory 4-2-1 headers. Most opt to make their own with improper lengths or collector or make it 1 pipe. I made sure I got this part even though my motor didnt come with it. Cost me almost $300 with shipping from Japan!

The KO was tuned for the 5S-FE not the 3S-GE, so if we go this route we cant expect the same results, they could be better, worst or no gain at all by going this route.

On the Intake side I not sure if improvements can be made. The stock airbox is in a position to receive plenty of cool airflow. Perhaps one can make a better flowing system that may provide a small gain. I know on the BEAMS one person made 15whp on a dyno with a aftermarket cone filter. But others have experienced problems and possible hp loss from using the same filter. At this time it is deemed a 1 time occurrence. And the BEAMS AFM is a very picky unit that does not like changes making R&D into a better intake a little harder.

The beams does not use AFM, i thought it used a different system.. MAF?? and maybe we can look into modding the one from the 1ZZ-FE and putting it on the BEAMS, but then again, it may be the same unit..

The record for highest HP 3S-GE belongs to a man by the name Glenn from Australia with a Blacktop BEAMS. His last figures actually are 190kw which translate to 255whp which roughly would be over 300hp on the flywheel.

He wants to hit the 200kw mark but doesn't believe he will as he has every possible modification done.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams/Toyota-MR2-34027-new-dyno-figures.html

Glenn is not a quitter and i believe that he is still working on something to get his engine over his mark.. I believe he is looking into dual stage injection, which might just do it for him.

With the beams, one guy seemed to gain a few hp with an aftermarket ecu. He made 185hp. Nice thing is, with a few changes, you can use the 1zzfe powerfc with this engine.

There might be some gains to be made with an aftermarket vvti controller.

I am sure with any aftermarket EMS you will be able to customize your maps and gain more HP than stock, and the 1ZZ power FC is definitely a way to tune in your mods to get maximum performance. I was successfully able to get the power FC for the Gen 3 3S-GTE up and running on my Gen 3 3S-GE head, which opens up the world for any Gen 3S-GE engine. The only problem with going this route is that you will need something to control your TVIS/ACIS systems and there are quite a few options for solutions such as the VAFC or RPM switch which i had working on prior setups.

Gen2 Mods: 91mm 5S crank (stroker), 86.5mm 11.5:1 CP pistons, Engle Valve springs, OBX 4-1 long tube header, full 2.5 mandrel bent straight through exhaust, generic intake pipe, stock factory fuel and ignition, Stock ECU- no tune on the engine at all

made 161whp 144wtq on a stock ECU with a leaking headgasket consuming 1qt in about 3days and consuming coolant

have you ever considered more mods? MSD Digital 6, MSD HVC II Coil, Better Plug wires, FPR, VAFC to semi tune it and control the ACIS? I am sure you will put more to the wheels with these mods.

161 wheel is a big improvment over the factory 165 FLYwheel, ive read on the OC.UK that the 3SGE head turns into a bottleneck whenever you stroke the motor but ive yet to see proof.. aparently my head is flowing well enough to nearly put to the wheels what its rated at the fly with only pistons and a bump in stroke :dontknow:

i have a set of 269*/8.8 cams that im building a head for but i might stick them in the 3SGE head to see the difference between them and the stock 244*/8.5's to see the gains

-Tad

bottleneck ?? i don?t think so.. my engine loves the stroke and i made aprox 20RWHP when doing so.. when you stroke a engine you move the power to the left while increasing HP/torque.. More torque usually.. Anyway.. If you read my Cam post.. you will see that all you need to do is push the power back to the right which will give you more overall power. I am not sure if you noticed but you properly lost some top end performance with the 5S crank.. I noticed and to fix that i went with a shorter manifold and it felt so much better. at that point i started running out of fuel and went with 440ss high imp RC injectors and a FPR, even on the stock ECU it just felt so much better and the engine/ECU loved it. I would agree that if you engine is now able to suck in more air with the stroke you need to do something to allow more air to get in by going with a nice port job and valves.. but wont necessarily call the head a bottleneck. It seems that people just slap on the 2.2 bottom end put in the same compression or lower pistons and say "oh.. it does not feel the same and i think i lost HP but got as few ft of torque" dont listen to those people.. They are the reason that we in the NA world don?t make power.. They doubt everything and don?t try anything.. Then they post on here and convenience the rest of us that it?s a bad then and that turns into the normal consensus.. Which is why you hear most of the time ?don?t build your NA.. just go turbo?.

 

[eazy2001x]

that hardest part of this is the total lack of info and proof- not to cut anyone down here {eazy} but its hard to say i made this much or that much power without a dyno {once again this wasnt made to put anyone down at all} this going a lil off topic but what are we having problems building power hints a 2.2 liter 5sge/3sge making 160whp yet 1.8 liter hondas are making much much more power than that? another issue may be the lack of info on cams, ind throttle bodys-ect ect- somthing that has been done time and time again on other motors

just to re-comment on this.. I have been to the dyno.. I have seen the power.. I have modded my car and felt gains.. I can tell you that i am making more power than what i made before and im actually willing to go back to the same dyno and pull it again on the stock ECU to prove that before switching over to the power FC.

I think it loved the stroke.

Also the Formula Atlantic is a strict race motor that would suck balls to drive on the street and costs about 10k new from toysports. Also it was 240hp on the flywheel not the wheels.

But overall I agree we need a bigger push for aftermarket parts. If we gather enough interest I know easily someone could make a header esp for gen2 guys since they would also share a market with 5SFE owners. Only thing is most people are not willing to pay the money associated with all that. I willing to pay 1k for a proper manifold most are not.

I dont see how just because a engine makes a lot of power it would not be able to be daly driven.. I hate to hear this and it really makes no sense to me.. look at the turbo MR2 guys with over 400WHP that drive their cars to work and school every day.. just because you make power does not mean that you have to drive your car like every stop light is a tree and your gas pedal is a on and off switch. how many high HP cars did NoShoes tuned and have like 30+ MPG...Also if you dont have the money to build your car sit back and watch the rest of us.. Building a NA cost money because of the lack of support.. Its a sad thing to me but hey.. these are the cards and we have to work with what we have to make power.. and right now all we have is each other.

I think the best thing is to start with the engine that already produces the desired result. That's the nice thing about the 3sge. The gen2, gen3, and the beams are all relatively cheap. So, you can be up to 175whp (200hp atc) without resorting to aftermarket parts or any other modifications.


Maybe eazy can tell me this since he's the only one I know of who's just basically slapped a 3sge head on a 5sfe bottom end. But basically, what exactly do you end up with if you do this? I would imagine the result would be an interference motor, but any idea of the compression rate?

With a beams head you would probably make 200whp assuming your comp was still over 10:1. For the beams, you'd also have to drill oil passages for the vvti.

It's been argued that a stroked beams would be less than ideal with the longer stroke. Square engines rev a little better, but really, the beams isn't all that high revving anyway. Not compared to a 2zzge or a 20v, or any of the honda motors.

Come on now.. We are here to mod.. I dont think there is more than 5% of the community here that has a engine that they dont want to mod or have modded in some type of way.

when i just slapped the head on the 5S block and drove it i was young and in a experimental stage in my life and didnt care about checking compression or clearance or anything for that matter.. I just bolted it on and went.. Now later on in life i realize that to make power you need to do much more than just that alone..

I can honestly say that i started the 5S-GE trend which turned into a 5S-GTE trend and now everyone wants to do it.. Because before i started posting about it i really didnt hear much about it at all.. Now look.. its because of the creative ideas that we have that we are able to make power today.. lets look outside of the box and stop thinking as if we have one brain and experiment. I urge you all to do so..

Lets look at your point.. what do you really want to rev out to and how much power do you think you will make.. I believe that the beams engine would love a 2.2 crank and if i had one in my car i would have stroked it already.. look at Servins engine.. that?s what he did and he made more power.. yes he altered his VE and sacrificed some top end for low end.. but that?s nothing that a shorter manifold and some cams cant fix.. Look at the 2.2 5S-GTE guys who are revving their engines to 8500-8700 and making power.. the stock beams engine has a redline of 7800 rpm.. so why do you think that going with 5 more mm stroke would kill you if you were on a NA!

 

[eazy2001x]

i really dont see how vtec has any part in this whole making power game, if you are fimiler with how vtec really works that you know that it already uses the larger loab on the cam shaft at high rpm- {where your power will be made} so with our engines using a larger loab cam should yeild the same power high end as the honda ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcT_ZyY3F0k
if a non vtec engine was build the same in every way other than the cam shafts as a vtec engine, but the non vtec has the same size cam loab as the vtec one did {the loab in green on this video} after 5K rmp wouldent they make the exact same power? i dont see why vtec has anything to do with power other than low vs high end

I cant really agree with you on this one.. Think about it this way.. you have the ultimate high end performance build which is good to rev up to like 9k and make power all the way up to redline.. but you have no power down low at all.. you could technically swap out the larger cams for smaller ones shifting the power to the right and you lose all that power but now have it down low which may make you r car more fun to drive on the streets but worst on the track.. Now just think of this.. you figure that with your smaller cams your power falls off at 5k but you make good power before that.. and with your larger cams it makes power at 5300 and makes power all the way to redline at 8600 but no real low end.. now you want the best of both worlds.. what do you do.? nothing because you dont have VTEC... thats the whole point of it.. one cam with two profiles. one for low end performance and the other for high end performance.

A cam generally moves the overall powerband up in the revrange. Usually more aggressive cams add top end at the expense of the bottom end.

With a secondary cam profile, the vtec motors can run a very aggressive cam without impacting the bottom end nearly as much. You could run single profile cams with a 3sge that equaled the vtec 4500rpm+ cam, but the motor would be absolutely dead off the line. Not ideal for a street car.

It's all of course meant to manipulate cam overlap. Personally I think VVTI does a better job at this. With vtec you get two overlap settings. With vvti, you get continuously variable overlap. The disadvantage is you really only get duration variation. Vtec gives you duration and lift.

If I have to choose between VTEC and VVTI, I take VVTI. A vtec motor will make more peak hp, but the vvti motor will be more even performing.

you should also read my cam thread.. and there are many ways to change other things on your car with larger cams to make low end performance. the Honda guys done mind the loss of low end torque because their cars prob weight like 1000lbs less than ours so they dont need massive torque and which is part of the reason they have so many NA's in the 10's

thats my point though, the big power is made high rpm, not low, so using a larger cam like the ones of the honda should still build big power even with out vtec- i understand the low end power thing but im talking high hp high rpm


i would love to see a beams head on a high compression sleeved 5sfe block- but it seems like we are forever away from there

Its really not.. you could build a low end power monster if you really wanted to but end up having to shift at 4800 with a redline of 5500.. if you went with 88mm 12:1 compression pistons with a 2.2 5s block, a gen 2 head since its has good low end punch, find cams smaller than a 252/252 combo, remove your 2 1/2 exhaust and go with something like the stock size and put back on the stock manifold you could have a torque monster but thats prob not what your looking for.

Something i found interesting in the eazys cam thread

"""Intake Duration @ .050 Recommended CR
210 8.5-9.5:1
210-220 9-9.5:1
220-230 10:1
230-240 10.5-11:1
240 and up 11:1 or greater"""

the gen2 factory runs 10:1/244 so according to this scale my 1.5 bump in compression is putting those 244cams near their sweet spot, yeah? would that explain the bump in power on a stock ecu??

I would expect so.. but thats just a general refference..

I am pretty sure I found a link to this article on here somewhere, I am not sure though. It is from www.roadandtrack.net.au and deals with modifying the 3SGE.

http://stu.cbu.edu/~azysk/3sge.pdf

If there are any difficulties viewing, or a problem with me hosting this file, let me know! Hopefully this may help the discussion.

Ill read this later on or tomorrow and get back to you with what i think if i can find the time..

we also need some of theres

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=658&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

i dont think the rwd one will fit in our mr2s

http://www.mmsport.com.au/productview.php?pid=659&ppid=Throttle_Bodies_and_Accessories

also would 3sgte cams fit on 3sge motor ???

Im the one who posted this in the NA section like a month ago.. the RWD ones will work but you have to cut your firewall. after the discussion in that thread the RWD setup may actually have better flow and yield better whp results.

one thing that was interesting in the road and track article was they said you should use a 80mm exhaust piping which is around 3" every one uses 2.25" for n/a motors. I emailed them, they said its correct and it will work fine. Some one should try a 3" exhaust and see what gains they get?

This is a tricky thing.. if you make good torque and want to sacrifice some of it for top end performance i would say do it.. but be careful because if you dont make that much torque and go with a 3 inch.. you may not like your car after the install.. I am running a full 2.5 from the collector out using modified HKS Celica SS headers from Japan and love them. Just look at HP/Torque and where it falls in your RPM range as a seesaw you give to get?

 

[Servin]

Then maybe we need to look into adding back pressure??

I think so everyone I have seen has been putting huge exhaust systems 2.5" and more. Which is quite backwards unless you have monstrous 2.4l NA with 300 series cams and every mod in the world. 90% of the 3SGE being are made for street use so the 1-3 additional hp is not worth the huge sacrifice of tq.

The beams does not use AFM, i thought it used a different system.. MAF?? and maybe we can look into modding the one from the 1ZZ-FE and putting it on the BEAMS, but then again, it may be the same unit..

Actually it does, uses the same AFM torpedo thingy that the 1MZ uses. 1ZZ is a different unit. Im using a 1MZ AFM.

Glenn is not a quitter and i believe that he is still working on something to get his engine over his mark.. I believe he is looking into dual stage injection, which might just do it for him.

Yes I do believe he can still push a bit but not much more. But where he is at is quite a feat considering the technology is from 99! The top honda's (the 2.4 hybrids) can reach 300whp with extensive effort but are disposable motors meaning valves hit pistons very easily.

 

[Servin]

I dont see how just because a engine makes a lot of power it would not be able to be daly driven.. I hate to hear this and it really makes no sense to me.. look at the turbo MR2 guys with over 400WHP that drive their cars to work and school every day.. just because you make power does not mean that you have to drive your car like every stop light is a tree and your gas pedal is a on and off switch. how many high HP cars did NoShoes tuned and have like 30+ MPG...Also if you dont have the money to build your car sit back and watch the rest of us.. Building a NA cost money because of the lack of support.. Its a sad thing to me but hey.. these are the cards and we have to work with what we have to make power.. and right now all we have is each other.


Come on now.. We are here to mod.. I dont think there is more than 5% of the community here that has a engine that they dont want to mod or have modded in some type of way.

I was specifically talking about the Formula Atlantic motor which is 1.6L motor strung out to 240hp. It revs to 11k and peak tq is around 10k IIRC. Which means that particular motor would suck balls to daily drive because there would be no power in the rev range you use while crusing around. You would have to drive it like a race car from light to light to just be able to go. I would love 11k rev's but having to do that just to get off the line everyday would not good. And the motor wouldn't last either.

But you cant compare the Turbo guys to us. They can have high HP because the more boost they add not only increases HP it also increases compression to raise TQ aswell. Making it enjoyable to drive around and achieve better MPG's because they now have more TQ requiring less fuel to move the vehicle. Whereas us in the high NA class usually have to sacrifice TQ to make more peak HP. Lowering our mpg and drivability.

Now take Glenn's motor. Its a high strung motor but still has enough low end grunt to make it suitable for daily driving, even the cams are low enough to make it enjoyable to drive on the street. So it shows that high HP NA motor can be enjoyable. Which i think it goes for all 3SGE's because they all have a bit of grunt bigger than that of the typical 2.0L I-4.

Im not saying let's not mod our NA motors. But Turbo's have the advantage because they have the replacement for displacement. A High HP NA motor is not for eveyone and I think everyone here knows that. I also expect to get minimal gains for my relative dollar. But to the me its not about the monetary value its about the desired outcome, I want my motor to do exactly this and like this and I dont care how much it cost compared to your Turbo.

Also FYI the BEAMS has the same 7250 redline every other 3S-GE has.

 

[XiOus271]

I know the Kseries guys are running 3inch but it really moves your torque to the right which isnt fun but i guess if youre shooting for peak hp then low rpm toqrue is something youll have to give up

i would run one for the hell of it but the only problem is every header on the market that will fit the gen2 only has a 2.5 collector so a custom header would be needed (which we NEED anyway)

is anyone good at working metal??

If someone can help come up with a design, I have access to a fair amount of equipment (5 axis CNC mill and CNC lathe included), nothing to do mandrel bends though, and I am pretty handy with welding and the likes... I think I also may know some people that could help do a CFD analysis provided I give them a CAD drawing (I can do Pro/E or Solidworks).

 

[mr220v]

I'd say vvti actually does a better job of "replacing displacment" than a turbo. Not really because of the total power it adds, but because of how it adds it.

Turbos are laggy and Vtec has that severe changeover. VVTI has none of that. It's a lot like you took the gen2 or gen3 motor and added half a liter to it. It's the same powerband as the gen2, except now instead of a 165hp peak, it's a 200hp peak....at roughly the same rpm and with a stronger bottom end.

Electronically, vvti is much more advanced than vtec. Given a choice of VVTI or Vtec, I'd take VVTI any day.

I'm all for modding these engines, but I'm more intrested in what can be accomplished with factory parts. Custom parts are the reason why budgets for these projects explode. Limited production=High cost. Now, to realize the ultimate potential of a given platform, you will not get there with factory parts, but I would say it's preferable to use the best factory options available and go from there.

That's one of the reasons why I'm intrested in what eazy has found over time with the 5sge's he's had. What exactly do you get if you use a 5sfe's block, crank, and rods, but a set of stock 3sge pistons?

As you know, 1.8L 7age's have been fairly successful. Most of the time, all they do is run 7afe bottom ends with 4age pistons. I'd like to see 7age 20v's, but hear that 8000rpms is just a bit too high for the 7afe rods. In the case of the beams 3sge's, peak hp is nowhere near that. At 7000rpms, the 5sfe bottom end should still be just fine.

 

[eazy2001x]

I was specifically talking about the Formula Atlantic motor which is 1.6L motor strung out to 240hp. It revs to 11k and peak tq is around 10k IIRC. Which means that particular motor would suck balls to daily drive because there would be no power in the rev range you use while crusing around. You would have to drive it like a race car from light to light to just be able to go. I would love 11k rev's but having to do that just to get off the line everyday would not good. And the motor wouldn't last either.

But you cant compare the Turbo guys to us. They can have high HP because the more boost they add not only increases HP it also increases compression to raise TQ aswell. Making it enjoyable to drive around and achieve better MPG's because they now have more TQ requiring less fuel to move the vehicle. Whereas us in the high NA class usually have to sacrifice TQ to make more peak HP. Lowering our mpg and drivability.

Now take Glenn's motor. Its a high strung motor but still has enough low end grunt to make it suitable for daily driving, even the cams are low enough to make it enjoyable to drive on the street. So it shows that high HP NA motor can be enjoyable. Which i think it goes for all 3SGE's because they all have a bit of grunt bigger than that of the typical 2.0L I-4.

Im not saying let's not mod our NA motors. But Turbo's have the advantage because they have the replacement for displacement. A High HP NA motor is not for eveyone and I think everyone here knows that. I also expect to get minimal gains for my relative dollar. But to the me its not about the monetary value its about the desired outcome, I want my motor to do exactly this and like this and I dont care how much it cost compared to your Turbo.

Also FYI the BEAMS has the same 7250 redline every other 3S-GE has.

My point was not to compare a NA to a turbo it was more so to show you that you can make power and still have drivability.. Do you know the size of a standard 272 cam its about 16+ more duration measures at .50. My cams are like +36 measured at .50 Glenn?s cams are much larger than mine.. if you were looking at advertised duration on my cams I could even say 360-70 while Glen might be in the 400+ world.

And with enough time spent on cams/intake/exhaust I am sure we can have the best of both worlds high HP and torque..

I thought I seen that it was 7800 but I guess I was wrong.. Maybe it was a chipped ECU or something.

Good points..

If someone can help come up with a design, I have access to a fair amount of equipment (5 axis CNC mill and CNC lathe included), nothing to do mandrel bends though, and I am pretty handy with welding and the likes... I think I also may know some people that could help do a CFD analysis provided I give them a CAD drawing (I can do Pro/E or Solidworks).

we also need research as to what we can do to make power before building things.. or maybe just build them and see what we get.. So far all we know is that we can stroke and up compression to make more power.. but what else???

I'd say vvti actually does a better job of "replacing displacment" than a turbo. Not really because of the total power it adds, but because of how it adds it.

Turbos are laggy and Vtec has that severe changeover. VVTI has none of that. It's a lot like you took the gen2 or gen3 motor and added half a liter to it. It's the same powerband as the gen2, except now instead of a 165hp peak, it's a 200hp peak....at roughly the same rpm and with a stronger bottom end.

Electronically, vvti is much more advanced than vtec. Given a choice of VVTI or Vtec, I'd take VVTI any day.

I'm all for modding these engines, but I'm more intrested in what can be accomplished with factory parts. Custom parts are the reason why budgets for these projects explode. Limited production=High cost. Now, to realize the ultimate potential of a given platform, you will not get there with factory parts, but I would say it's preferable to use the best factory options available and go from there.

That's one of the reasons why I'm intrested in what eazy has found over time with the 5sge's he's had. What exactly do you get if you use a 5sfe's block, crank, and rods, but a set of stock 3sge pistons?

As you know, 1.8L 7age's have been fairly successful. Most of the time, all they do is run 7afe bottom ends with 4age pistons. I'd like to see 7age 20v's, but hear that 8000rpms is just a bit too high for the 7afe rods. In the case of the beams 3sge's, peak hp is nowhere near that. At 7000rpms, the 5sfe bottom end should still be just fine.

VVTI will actually adjust the cam to add torque at any RPM point. And the more torque you have the more HP you will make correct?

Most of the newer Honda engines have VTEC and VVTI all we have is VVTI..


The sad thing is that this will cost us.. the closest thing you have to the setup you are asking about it Servin?s build using just the 5S crank.. he put down 161whp..

The reason we cant just put 3S pistons into a 5S block is because the 5S is 87mm and the 3S is 86 on the bore.

Lets keep this one going.. We are out only last hope..

 

[Servin]

Glenn's Redtop BEAMS Cams are Lift = 13mm and Duration - 257. Toda Cams are IN 268deg 480thou lift and EX 264deg 440thou.

Here is nice page to get a grasp one what available parts there are for the BEAMS.

http://www.beams-redtop.com/redmods.htm

 

[eazy2001x]

i thought he had diff cams.. his own.. i knew he went smaller but this is from another thread for fef..

Stock Gen 3 3S-GE Cams:

In: 208 duration @.050 with 9.04mm lift
Ex: 210 duration @.050 with 8.61mm lift

Mine:

In: 244@50 10.54mm Lift 48 Ramp - +36 Duration +1.5mm Lift +2 Ramp (45M)
Ex: 243@50 10.16mm Lift 50 Ramp - +35 Duration +1.55mm Lift +-0 Ramp (570M+2)

Glenn's Cams:

So the Cam spec from Glen at +49

In: 257 duration @.050
Ex: 257 duration @.050

 

[dan_wheeler]

Man, this is a great thread. Somebody really should explore increasing the range of the VVTi on a RedTop, though. There's more low-end power to be had while keeping the top-end power.


Just need to clear up a few misconceptions, though....

Turbos are laggy and Vtec has that severe changeover. VVTI has none of that.

Electronically, vvti is much more advanced than vtec. Given a choice of VVTI or Vtec, I'd take VVTI any day.

1) Agree, the *OEM* changeover in Honda's vtec systems are severe. That is a marketing choice made by Honda to give the driver a "boost" feeling. The very first thing all Honda tuners do is drop the vtec crossover by about 1500 rpms to smooth out the changeover. Please take a moment and review Toyota's 2zz-ge and its problems with a 6000rpm crossover.

2) vtec != VVTi. VTC == VVTi. ivtec == VVTL-i. vtec and VVTi are two completely different systems built for two competely different purposes. It's kind of like saying "If I had a choice between VVTi and VVL, I'd take VVTi every time".

-Dan

 

[mr220v]

Man, this is a great thread. Somebody really should explore increasing the range of the VVTi on a RedTop, though. There's more low-end power to be had while keeping the top-end power.


Just need to clear up a few misconceptions, though....


1) Agree, the *OEM* changeover in Honda's vtec systems are severe. That is a marketing choice made by Honda to give the driver a "boost" feeling. The very first thing all Honda tuners do is drop the vtec crossover by about 1500 rpms to smooth out the changeover. Please take a moment and review Toyota's 2zz-ge and its problems with a 6000rpm crossover.

2) vtec != VVTi. VTC == VVTi. ivtec == VVTL-i. vtec and VVTi are two completely different systems built for two competely different purposes. It's kind of like saying "If I had a choice between VVTi and VVL, I'd take VVTi every time".

-Dan

In that case, I'd take the variable valve timing over the variable lift, ie high rpm cam lobe. It makes a 2L feel like a 2.5L...or makes a 3sge feel like a 1jzge. A better feel in my opinion than feeling like a motorcycle engine.

 

[eazy2001x]

ok.. back to the 3sge.. which has no V anything..

when u stroked your 3s what happened.. am i the only one who shifted my power aprox 1000 rpm to the left? you guys drive your cars everyday.. what did you nodice different???

now i changed the manifold to put things back to the right.. shorter caldina manifold..anyone eles can chime in now.. enough of the V talk unless you have VVTI and can chime in with your facts/changes/results...

 

[RA45celica]

the only reason that the honda v tec kicks in at high revs at 6300rpm is to get past emissions ,most motors only go up to 6rpm ,.thats why its set at this rev
on the beams motors the altezza 3sge has a red line of 7800 rpm with max power at 7600 rpm
the auto has power at 7000 rpm and rev limit is the same
the fwd not sure of but the rev cut should be the same and jap 1s have 180kph speed cut built into the ecu
on the cams all of my profiles are the 503 lift with 257at 50 thou
in the pics they are just showing a generic cam as example