I'm running toe in, positive caster and negative camber per the alignment recommendations. First track event is a little more than a week away and once I do an auto-x in march, i'll post what i thought of the two.
track/autocross alignment question
This season I plan on doing as many tracks days as I can, but I'm also planning on attending almost all of the autocross events. I've been looking through the archives at past alignment discussions and haven't found anything concrete. My car is a CSP MR2SC running on tokicos, eibach springs, adjustable ST bars front and rear, and crash bolts. After looking around, here's what I'm thinking about running as my alignment:
front:
toe out: 1/8"
camber: ~2.5 negative
caster: stock
rear:
toe in: 1/16"
camber: ~2.3 negative
While this would be a near perfect autocross alignment, I've been reading that it would make it a bit darty at speed. I generally run both bars at full stiff, but I thought maybe I could loosen the rear bar to settle the car to compensate for the front toe out while at track days. What do you guys think?
front:
toe out: 1/8"
camber: ~2.5 negative
caster: stock
rear:
toe in: 1/16"
camber: ~2.3 negative
While this would be a near perfect autocross alignment, I've been reading that it would make it a bit darty at speed. I generally run both bars at full stiff, but I thought maybe I could loosen the rear bar to settle the car to compensate for the front toe out while at track days. What do you guys think?
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That's exactly the front and rear toe, as well as the front camber I am running on my 88 SC, which is set up and running in CSP, assuming you are talking total toe and not each side. I run -1.5 deg camber on the rear, though. I run 4.8 deg caster - not sure exactly what the stock caster setting is.
I also have ST sway bars front and rear, but I am running Ground Controls and Konis.
It is my understanding that for track, you would want to run 0 toe or toe in, but not toe out in the front like you do for auto-x. I would change the front toe to 1/16 total in. or .03 inches in each side, like the rear is.
I have Ground Control camber plates in the front to get -2.5 deg camber. I was only able to get to about -1.2 with the stock bolts, and then to -1.8 with the eccentric camber bolts in the bottom of the front.
Yes, indeed, running toe out in front makes it darty. It tends to follow any road imperfections and track whereever you point it. That is really good for crisp turn in at auto-x, but not really optimal for higher speeds.
John
I also have ST sway bars front and rear, but I am running Ground Controls and Konis.
It is my understanding that for track, you would want to run 0 toe or toe in, but not toe out in the front like you do for auto-x. I would change the front toe to 1/16 total in. or .03 inches in each side, like the rear is.
I have Ground Control camber plates in the front to get -2.5 deg camber. I was only able to get to about -1.2 with the stock bolts, and then to -1.8 with the eccentric camber bolts in the bottom of the front.
Yes, indeed, running toe out in front makes it darty. It tends to follow any road imperfections and track whereever you point it. That is really good for crisp turn in at auto-x, but not really optimal for higher speeds.
John
I was under the impression that the camber bolts replaced the top bolt, not the bottom bolt. Can someone clarify this? I'm installing them tomorrow so I definitely need to figure this out.jeebert2 said:It is my understanding that for track, you would want to run 0 toe or toe in, but not toe out in the front like you do for auto-x. I would change the front toe to 1/16 total in. or .03 inches in each side, like the rear is.
I have Ground Control camber plates in the front to get -2.5 deg camber. I was only able to get to about -1.2 with the stock bolts, and then to -1.8 with the eccentric camber bolts in the bottom of the front.
I'm still going back and forth about front toe settings. The '85 CSP car I drove had 1/8 toe out and felt amazing to autocross, but I really don't want something unmanageable on the track. I'm thinking of maybe just going with 1/16 toe out in front. I don't know... so much to think about...
You probably won't gain much by putting eccentric bolts in the top, since the stock top bolts have some adjustability already. You use those and then put the eccentric ones in the bottom and use them both together. That got me to -1.8, and I was only able to get to -1.2 with just the stock bolts. The eccentric bolts are a total pain in the ass to install. Get some camber plates if you want a lot of negative camber in the front.
As far as toe out on the track, I wouldn't call it unmanageable, just not optimal. I ran .09 out on each side for NA2005 on my 93, and it felt OK, and that is more than 1/8 inch total. The toe out does make for great turn in at auto-x, and any tight bend. It's just not as good for higher speed bends.
John
As far as toe out on the track, I wouldn't call it unmanageable, just not optimal. I ran .09 out on each side for NA2005 on my 93, and it felt OK, and that is more than 1/8 inch total. The toe out does make for great turn in at auto-x, and any tight bend. It's just not as good for higher speed bends.
John
Ok so tonight I went to install the camber bolts and ran into some issues. The ones I bought are pn 81250, which the shop said was the right size for my car. The car came with some in a spare parts box with pn 81270. I put the smaller 81250's in the rear bottom bolts, but they didn't appear to fit... they were too loose and the whole suspension setup could be wiggled all around. I decided to try the bigger 81270's and they fit perfect. Once in place, if I turn the bolt the camber changes nice and smoothly. I haven't had a chance to install the fronts but are they the same size as the ones in back? It seems wierd that the part number that is supposed to fit the vehicle didn't. If the front is the same as the rear it looks like I need to buy some more of the larger ones. I'd really appreciate any thoughts on this because I'm trying to get my car aligned before Sunday's autocross.
The crash bolts for the 87-9 rear are definitely bigger than the fronts. The 87-9 rears are the same as the front and rear of the MKII.
Let us know how it works out, what the settings are when you get it aligned, and how it feels. There just aren't too many running the SC at auto-x, so give any info you can.
John
Let us know how it works out, what the settings are when you get it aligned, and how it feels. There just aren't too many running the SC at auto-x, so give any info you can.
John
Well, burning the proverbial midnight oil I got all four crash bolts installed, though one of them took a 3 foot breaker bar to get loose. I took it in for an alignment and here's what I ended up with:
front camber: -2.7/-2.5
front toe out: .01*/.03*
rear camber: -2.5/-2.5
rear toe in: .03*/.04*
I was hoping to get more toe out in the front, but they said that's as much as they could get. It actually took them like two hours to even get this, and that was using some new-fangled laser alignment thing that didn't even require removing the wheels from the car. Next time I think I might go somewhere else for an alignment, but this will be fine for now. I can't wait to see how it feels tomorrow.
John- Thanks for answering all these stupid questions I had. I'll let you know how it feels tomorrow.
front camber: -2.7/-2.5
front toe out: .01*/.03*
rear camber: -2.5/-2.5
rear toe in: .03*/.04*
I was hoping to get more toe out in the front, but they said that's as much as they could get. It actually took them like two hours to even get this, and that was using some new-fangled laser alignment thing that didn't even require removing the wheels from the car. Next time I think I might go somewhere else for an alignment, but this will be fine for now. I can't wait to see how it feels tomorrow.
John- Thanks for answering all these stupid questions I had. I'll let you know how it feels tomorrow.
They were good questions - nothing stupid about detailed auto-x alignment.
I have never heard of a shop not being able to get enough toe. With the MK2, I know sometimes they can't get the front camber you need without camber plates. I don't think they know what they are doing.
You should ask fellow autocrossers where they go for alignments. In the Cincinnati area there is a place owned by a former racer, who actually raced a MKI, among many other things. They are not cheap, but do a good job and know what a non stock alignment is. For me, with both cars, they have never been more than .01 inches off on the toe - side to side, and never more than .1 deg off - side to side on the camber and caster.
I wish I could auto-x tomorrow - it was freakin' snowing here today. I hate winter.
John
I have never heard of a shop not being able to get enough toe. With the MK2, I know sometimes they can't get the front camber you need without camber plates. I don't think they know what they are doing.
You should ask fellow autocrossers where they go for alignments. In the Cincinnati area there is a place owned by a former racer, who actually raced a MKI, among many other things. They are not cheap, but do a good job and know what a non stock alignment is. For me, with both cars, they have never been more than .01 inches off on the toe - side to side, and never more than .1 deg off - side to side on the camber and caster.
I wish I could auto-x tomorrow - it was freakin' snowing here today. I hate winter.
John
I run zero toe in the front for both autox (which I don't do much any more) and track days. I don't have any twitchyness problem on the track. Rear toe is 1/16" total. Lots of camber f&r, I run Hoosiers.
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