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Justin311 said:
Yup. I'd say the least we learned from this is Texas Ace is like the freakin energizer bunny, he keeps pulling and reinstalling and pulling and reinstalling pulling and reinstalling ....lol

Vendors are not supposed to rely on customers to fund this type of project.

:thumbdown to EMS powered for not bothering to do all this BEFORE selling these :bsflag:
I agree ? however I can?t help myself for thinking that at least Bak only has a select few doing his R&D for him and they got discounts?

Berk on the other hand just Group Buy?s a product to hundreds of people and when all the fitment problems are found out - he makes an OMFG L00K!!! we have a Group Buy on the ?V2? model THAT FITS!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
mafix said:
that borg warner is NOT a bullseye turbo. they are different. the smallest turbo bullseye makes is the s256.
Correction, that is the smallest they USED to make. These other trims were just relesed a few months ago. Bak was one of the very first to try them.

Look them up, they are real borg warner turbo trims.
 

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Dracon said:
I agree ? however I can?t help myself for thinking that at least Bak only has a select few doing his R&D for him and they got discounts?
That would be nice if it were true, however if you reference the EMS Powered Group Buy thread there is no mention of any R&D work, any rework required, anything. Just a big fat 20 (that's a $35,000.00+ EMS sale for the mathematically challenged) member group buy. The only reason more people (the full 20) are not involved in this fiasco is a) the price point was too high to get lots involved and b) hopefully some people listened to our warnings. For reference, these are the only terms EMS offered on their group buy "Discount plus Free housing polishing":

Baktasht Group Buy Ad said:
This is an introductory group buy for this turbo kit at a deeply discounted price. All orders placed through this group buy should be shipping approximately the 2nd week of April 2009. Compressor and turbine polishing are FREE during this group buy. So please do not select the option to polish the compressor and turbine housings.March 15th, 2009:
We have 8 more spots available for this group buy!

Group buy has been extended to March 31st. A couple dyno's coming in the next few weeks. Not in time for the group buy unfortunately.
Perhaps the group buy terms would have been a bit more forthcoming:

Next Gen Group Buy Ad said:
This is an introductory group buy for this turbo kit that positively will not work out of the box. Disclosure! You may experience issues such as:

  1. Will not clear the Mr2 transmission on Gen3 motors. Please purchase angle grinder separately or see item 2.
  2. We will replace the turbine housing at our discrection, however the new one will be at such a severe angle it will not fit. Please purchase that angle grinder now.
  3. Compressor housing will not clock and will come incorrectly clocked. Please purchase new IC piping separately (group buy coming soon!)
  4. Wastegate arm is bolted rather than welded/pressed will slip possibly causing catastrophic engine damage from overboost. Please purchase forged pistons separately, or see item 5.
  5. We will optionally replace said wastegate actuator arm with a new and improved version welded by the introductory welding class at the center for nearsighted senior citizens. It may look ugly, but it still wont work, however, see item 6.
  6. Downpipe was not correctly designed and interferes with wastegate flapper operation. Please see angle grinder you hopefully purchased at item 1 (or item 2 if you were nice enough to wait for the useless new turbine housing).

Group buy has been extended because we cannot refund the people whose turbo kits didn't work. We need more sales to generate refunds! We also offer a "tell-a-friend" discount where if you tell a friend to buy somethign we cannot provide as well, we will actually GIVE you his money in exchange. Caveat: He may come after you in court instead of us.
Dracon said:
Berk on the other hand just Group Buy?s a product to hundreds of people and when all the fitment problems are found out - he makes an OMFG L00K!!! we have a Group Buy on the ?V2? model THAT FITS!!!!!!
True, but 100 exhausts x $350 = $35,000. Baktasht managed to inflict the same financial carnage spread out among much fewer patrons. I dont know if thats a good or a bad thing....
 

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Texas_Ace said:
Correction, that is the smallest they USED to make. These other trims were just relesed a few months ago. Bak was one of the very first to try them.

Look them up, they are real borg warner turbo trims.
i'm not argueing that they are borg warner. they are. they are not bullseye turbos though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
mafix said:
i'm not argueing that they are borg warner. they are. they are not bullseye turbos though.
These turbos are custom made for bak, and only for him (which is why there was such a delay).
 

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Ok here we go!!!

Rememeber it has stock Rev2 cams and head which holds it back big time!

It was 30c here today in the UK so the results are amazing!!!!



the spool is faster than a CT20b even on this S256!!!!!

341bhp & 320lbft at 1.4bar is very good!!



 

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FASTER than a ct20b?!? Noooo.

While I am pleasantly suprised that it doesn't look as bad as I thought it would given the boost control issues (will wait to hear what you report back on that) its nowhere near 20b spool. Assuming that the hp/tq plots axis are the same, 200lb-ft @ 4000rpm is GT3082 territory. But I can hardly read the tqe axis. Can you enlarge that graph like the others?

A 3071 or TD06 will spool at about 3500-3800 rpm.

A CT20b will spool at about 2900-3100 rpm.

All those are +/- but ballpark enough. You're in 3082 territory which isn't horrible, but is nowhere near what he promised.
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
Dracon said:
I thought the DSM crew has had 38mm internally gated S256 BW turbos for a couple years?
They have indeed, those are the same turbo but a differnt turbine housing.

I should have said the turbine housing is made customs for bak as that is what is really changed.

Nice power, spool is indeed not 20b spool but still spooling at 4000rpm's is quite good for that power level.

With some cams 375hp would be attanable.

Be interesting what the 252 i have spools at. My power guesstmateds of 325hp at 17psi look about right though with me having a 3rd gen. spool is what i am woundering about.

Overall quite nice! Just waiting on my nre WG acturator to show up and i will get mine back together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Justin311 said:
All those are +/- but ballpark enough. You're in 3082 territory which isn't horrible, but is nowhere near what he promised.
Your numbers are right give or take a little.

But just a quick note here, the S256 WAS billed as a direct competiter for the gt3082/3076 from the start.

The smaller trims is what he said would spool at 20b levels (even the quote you have above shows that, he was talking about the dyno of the S250 in that quote).

But you are right, it is a tad laggyier then it wa billed to be, but only by 100 - 200rpm's for this trim level. When i was ordering mine he said to expect spool right under 4000 rpm for the 256. This is spooling JUST over 4000.
 

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ENGINE MODS
Olly.Dent said:
My current mods engine wise are....

Weisco 86.5mm pistons
Eagle H-beam Rods
Cometic H/Gasket
ACL race mains bearings
ACL race big end bearings
ACL race thrusts
ARP head stud kit
Rebuilt Head
Light weight flywheel
Stage 2 Clutch
AEM EMS
AEM Water/Meth Injection Kit
3bar AEM Map Sensor
Racelogic
Berk Exhaust
4" EMS Intake

Engine was built in January by Rogue Motorsport.
hope you dont mind i repost that im sure the question about what mods you have will arise.

Justin311 said:
FASTER than a ct20b?!? Noooo.
Def not 20b territory. He also has a tuned afr and is at 20psi so i wouldnt see these turbos outspooling a 20b expecially on a more stock motor.

....But great dyno though thanks!
 

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Looks like an ok dyno, kind of like my 50 trim t3/t4 which gets up and going at 4000rpm. Not quite ct anything spool though. If you can accept that it is not a quick spooling turbo then it is probably an average medium to large bolt on upgrade.
 

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Texas_Ace said:
But just a quick note here, the S256 WAS billed as a direct competiter for the gt3082/3076 from the start.
That makes more sense...hopefully Olly knew what he was ordering!

Texas_Ace said:
But you are right, it is a tad laggyier then it wa billed to be, but only by 100 - 200rpm's for this trim level. When i was ordering mine he said to expect spool right under 4000 rpm for the 256. This is spooling JUST over 4000.
Agreed. I'll say right up front a number of us were expecting a "flop" and its not a flop, it looks like a T3/T4 turbo or GT3082 turbo. The "proof in the pudding" will be when it gos on a big motor with cams/intake mani. Olly's car sounds like it could have made more use of one of the smaller offerings, or he can upgrade in the future and take advantage of the power he's left on the table.

Waiting to see results from the smaller variety then...and the 20b spool with 400whp+ ;)
 

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For that spool, at that psi, and have a 540whp potential, it's the best choice at $2225 compared to equivalent kits. I'm sure "someone" will have something to say about it but looks like the turbo should be great once the problems are cured.
 

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SwpdMR2 said:
For that spool, at that psi, and have a 540whp potential, it's the best choice at $2225 compared to equivalent kits.
Whoah there chief, 350 whp @ 20psi does NOT make 540whp. To get to 540whp not only does the turbo need to come alive at higher flow/boost but it also needs to vent THAT much more exhaust, which is this turbos weak point. We need to see that first.

Second off, how is this a better choice than a Berk (yes I said it) or ATS GT3076 EWG kit for $2350? You're spending $125 more and you're getting a $250 wastegate (way more potential and functionality), a $300+ adaptor, and the extra hardware. That's $125 more for $550 worth of parts. Some people may say its less reliable with the extra parts, some people may say the EWG is a more robust design than the flimsy wastegate/actuator assy discussed above.

But I dont think anybody will argue that $2225 is too much for that turbo kit. I know Olly and these first guys didnt pay that, however, so maybe they got their money's worth, if the wastegate design proves to work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #98 ·
Justin311 said:
Agreed. I'll say right up front a number of us were expecting a "flop" and its not a flop, it looks like a T3/T4 turbo or GT3082 turbo. The "proof in the pudding" will be when it gos on a big motor with cams/intake mani. Olly's car sounds like it could have made more use of one of the smaller offerings, or he can upgrade in the future and take advantage of the power he's left on the table.

Waiting to see results from the smaller variety then...and the 20b spool with 400whp+ ;)
I agree, in fact i said the same thing to olly not to long ago asking why he would build the engine but not do cams/intake. I think cost was the issue.

He is leaving a lot on the table. You will notice that although he has a built engine, there is not anything that will really add any power over a normal 2L. He can just run higher boost then a stock block.

So this is comparable to a stock 2nd gen with stand alone.

With some more small mods he could be in the 400's easy IMO. And if he was to run race gas he could get a lot more then that.

I have to admit, this is about what i was expecting after doing all my reasearch and why i stuck with it. This is almost exactly what i was thinking it would do (i figured a tad higher but at these levels the stock Gen2 cams REALLY start hurting power).

SwpdMR2 said:
For that spool, at that psi, and have a 540whp potential, it's the best choice at $2225 compared to equivalent kits. I'm sure "someone" will have something to say about it but looks like the turbo should be great once the problems are cured.
These kits are actually set to be sold for under $2000, maybe a fair amount under $2000. So for that price i think it is doing quite well to compete with kits that cost $500+ more.

Justin311 said:
Whoah there chief, 350 whp @ 20psi does NOT make 540whp. To get to 540whp not only does the turbo need to come alive at higher flow/boost but it also needs to vent THAT much more exhaust, which is this turbos weak point. We need to see that first.

Second off, how is this a better choice than a Berk (yes I said it) or ATS GT3076 EWG kit for $2350? You're spending $125 more and you're getting a $250 wastegate (way more potential and functionality), a $300+ adaptor, and the extra hardware. That's $125 more for $550 worth of parts. Some people may say its less reliable with the extra parts, some people may say the EWG is a more robust design than the flimsy wastegate/actuator assy discussed above.

But I dont think anybody will argue that $2225 is too much for that turbo kit. I know Olly and these first guys didnt pay that, however, so maybe they got their money's worth, if the wastegate design proves to work.
Agreed that $2200 would be way overpriced. But as i said above it will be under $2000 for sure, the T3/T4 version is actually set to be in the $1500 range.

This turbos strong point actually IS in the higher power levels. This turbo can pump out 40+psi and it's sweet spot in somewhere in the low 30's IIRC. So flow WILL go up as boost goes up.

The exahust housing is also quite big so it can flow the extra exahust it needs to make that power.

Now i am not saying we are going to see any outrages power levels, but it has all the right aspects to make big power. Hitting 500+ on the 256 on a fully built engine is VERY possible. Evos hit upper 500's and low 600's on the S256 all the time. And there is always the S258 for even more power.

Overall at this point i am quite happy with his results and glad i stuck it thorugh. This give me hope for my turbo. You also have to remember that olly is still on the Rev 1 turbine housing that cuts off about 1/4 inch at the corners of the inlet. So he will gain a little power/spool when the Rev2 of the turbine housing is finished. 350rwhp would be possible i figure with that extra flow and a slight drop in spool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 ·
Steve said:
would the rev1 to rev2 turbine housing really make the difference between 341bhp & 350rwhp?
??? He made 341rwhp so that is only an extra 9hp. Yeah i think that is about right for that extra flow.
 
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