[blown59]

Im swapping a 2zz in a Mk1. What a project... Steep step for me. But I'm sure some of you have the experience and knowledge to assist.

Going from OBD (non) to OBDII is going to be quite the feat. After consulting with several ppl, I think I'm going to ditch the idea of the factory ECU and harness. I think it will be way tooo involved, and require too much in Celica extras to complete. Unless some of you think otherwise... love to have your input!!!

After talking with Bill, he suggested I contact you guys. He mentioned the tec3, which appears to be an AWSOME setup. I spoke with a rep today and liked what I heard upto the point of $$$$. What systems out there are capable of handling the 2zz and the vvti. Is the Megasquirt capable? What about the O2 wideband tunability. I think the tec3 is well within my means as far as install goes. Im not a pro by any means. Since late Nov. ive purchased my super clean '86 2, '00 2zz engine, harness, ecu and 6spd. Now funds are a bit tight.

What do ya'll feel would best suit me?

MUCH THANKS in advance!!!

 

[RickyB]

Just about any system can be harwired into the engine harness you have and made to work by somebody who knows what they are doing. If $s are an issue, then this may not be the way for you to go. I could easily do it in a few days if you brought the car to the Turbohoses shop in Livermore, CA. You can expect to pay somewhere in the $5K range for a suitable system plus installation and tuning. If you are an electronics wiz and learn to do your own tuning you might be able to DIY with a megasquirt and a couple hours on a dyno for under $1K.

 

[blown59]

Just about any system can be harwired into the engine harness you have and made to work by somebody who knows what they are doing...

...If you are an electronics wiz and learn to do your own tuning you might be able to DIY with a megasquirt and a couple hours on a dyno for under $1K.

Regarding the first statement:

Are you saying that the 2zz and its harness can be wired to the Mk1?
or
Are you saying that the 2zz can be wired to my current wiring harness?

Im not looking to have someone do it for me, Im wanting to do it (wiring oem ecu or standalone) myself, as Im wanting some learning experience and want to enjoy doing my DIY project. This being said, I am no electronics whiz, but can follow directions. Im just looking for the more simplified route, as wiring the two together is pretty Greek. Now is a stand alone going to be easier, or just as difficult and time consuming due to all the tuning?

NOTE: Im sure if I buy standalone, the company offering it should be able to provide tuning tech assistance or a local dyno. Tuning will require payed help.

Im just looking for a combo of lowbudget, dummy friendly and simplification.

 

[John Reed]

Im just looking for a combo of lowbudget, dummy friendly and simplification.

Doesn't the stock 4A-GE meet those requirments? Just playin.....


I put a 20V in my Mk1, and considered going 2ZZ. For both options I would only use a standalone as they are easier to wire in than the stock ECU, and easier to troubleshoot. You could potentially wire in the 2ZZ harness to your car (that would probably be the only real option if you really wanted to keep the 2ZZ ECU), or just build a custom harness for the standalone. Either way, you are looking into quite a bit of wiring. It will be a good learning experience, just have a clear plan in mind before you set out. I may still one of these days do a 2ZZ Mk1, but I barely have time to drive the one I have! But then again I really enjoy custom wiring.

If you consider a standalone, just make sure they are compatible with the VVTi system, unless you plan to just disable it.

 

[blown59]

Guys, I really appreciate the responses and they are of help. But c'mon, Im sure somebody has the answers I'm looking for...

I dont know much at all about standalones, who makes what and controls what. You guys who use these things, I'm sure have answers.

The Megasquirt is a budget system for the DIY'er who has the knowledge or wants to take the time. Im gonna put enough time into this wiring as it is, I dont want to spend time and research on building my ecu.

What standalone systems are budget oriented and compatable with the vvti and a fairly processors for precise/quick tuning and control. I like the features of the tec3 but priced too high for now. Is there anything out there comparable, maybe not having all the bells and whistles. But at least the ones that will allow me the necessary controls to make the 2zz perform.

Im looking to stay within a $500-$800 budget.

Hope this information is more specific... Flood me with a plethera of options...PLEASE

 

[John Reed]

Guys, I really appreciate the responses and they are of help. But c'mon, Im sure somebody has the answers I'm looking for...

I dont know much at all about standalones, who makes what and controls what. You guys who use these things, I'm sure have answers.

The Megasquirt is a budget system for the DIY'er who has the knowledge or wants to take the time. Im gonna put enough time into this wiring as it is, I dont want to spend time and research on building my ecu.

What standalone systems are budget oriented and compatable with the vvti and a fairly processors for precise/quick tuning and control. I like the features of the tec3 but priced too high for now. Is there anything out there comparable, maybe not having all the bells and whistles. But at least the ones that will allow me the necessary controls to make the 2zz perform.

Im looking to stay within a $500-$800 budget.

Hope this information is more specific... Flood me with a plethera of options...PLEASE

You will not find any quality standalone in that price range new. We are trying to present options, but you have to be realistic about the prices. We have all been there doing projects, and we are trying to prepare you for the actual costs.

Get on Ebay and hope for a good deal on a used box. There are some AEM units for Honda's going for about what you are willing to pay. You could easily use one of them on your car, just takes knowledge of wiring/tuning.

We are trying to help you, but this stuff is expensive and there is no way around it.


John

 

[joshstix]

Don't forget you need to be able to control VVTLi not just VVTi.

Tuning of the engine will not be cheap by any stretch of the imagination if you want to get the best out of it. Just tuning for cam switch over sounds easy enough, run it up on the small cam then run it up on the big cam and switch them where the two graphs intersect. However you are also able to change the open - close time of the cams as well as swapping the lobes over. I suspect that truly optimally tuning all cam timing possabillitys will take days of dyno time.

 

[RickyB]

You may be blazing a new path here. Nobody who is capable of figuring out what needs to be done is going to sit down and devote six hours of their life pro bono to hand you a list of directions and then another six hours consulting you over the phone. If you want this to be an inexpensive DIY project, start doing the homework part of the DIY project. Asking others to do your work for you does not qualify as doing homework or even as DIY.

 

[mr220v]

You will not find any quality standalone in that price range new.
John

You might pick up a haltech e6k for $1000. If you get it used, then maybe as cheap as $500. Old e6s's might be even cheaper. I've used them before, and they will easily run vvtli

In your position, an aftermarket might be easier. Obd2 wiring looks complicated, but should be doable.

Did you ever get that wiring pinout for the 2zzge ecu? You would have to have that in order to make a decision about the stock wiring being too difficult.

 

[John Reed]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Haltech E6K (or perhaps even the E11) can properly run that VVTLi in closed loop. Perhaps you could make it work in some sort of open loop (like the 20V) but it all comes down to if you want it to work like factory or not. Of course it depends on if the Haltech (or other ECU) can use the timing pattern of the 2ZZ. If not, you are looking into custom triggers (which will probably again exceed your budget).


John

 

[mr220v]

I don't see what the oxygen sensor has to do with the ecu grounding the solenoid for vvt, vvti, or vvtli to engage?

The e6k gives a ton of parameters by which you can engage just about anything. The only problem is that it only had grounding type triggers, which made honda vtec wiring a little trickier. The e6k will trigger inputs based on rpm, throttle position, manifold pressure, and there are others i'm forgetting.

 

[blown59]

You may be blazing a new path here. Nobody who is capable of figuring out what needs to be done is going to sit down and devote six hours of their life pro bono to hand you a list of directions and then another six hours consulting you over the phone. If you want this to be an inexpensive DIY project, start doing the homework part of the DIY project. Asking others to do your work for you does not qualify as doing homework or even as DIY.

PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU ASSUME... dunno where your coming up with this pro bono stuff and expecting the wiring directions to be handed to me.

WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR is the different standalone options, you know, the ones that would work best with my 2zz engine. Now, how does that constitute a list of directions and hours of consultation? OH, wait, maybe it was the whole trying to keep it within a budget that threw ya off?

 

[blown59]

Did you ever get that wiring pinout for the 2zzge ecu? You would have to have that in order to make a decision about the stock wiring being too difficult.

No I did not. I spoke with the service rider who broke out the '00 Celi's electrical wiring diagram book (EWD399U) and the 86 MR2 (EWD004U). The 00 EWD didnt have the pinouts for the ecu... a simplified version like avail for the MR2. He copyied several useful pages and diagrams and had already taken up at least an hour of his time. The information is available but is going to have to be traced through the EWD. Its not spelled out like I was hoping or I may just not gotten to it.

In fact I was gonna drop in today and spend a few minutes looking for it. Also have a cpl of other avenues to try as well. Ill be sure to get you a copy of it when I source it.

 

[mrlaw]

Takea look at the Powerfc http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/apexi_power_fc_toyota_celica_gts_2000_.html
and /or
Check the Celica forums
Lawrence

 

[John Reed]

I don't see what the oxygen sensor has to do with the ecu grounding the solenoid for vvt, vvti, or vvtli to engage?

The e6k gives a ton of parameters by which you can engage just about anything. The only problem is that it only had grounding type triggers, which made honda vtec wiring a little trickier. The e6k will trigger inputs based on rpm, throttle position, manifold pressure, and there are others i'm forgetting.

When I say closed loop I am referring to the VVTLi control, not the oxygen sensor. The term closed loop as used in this industry typically refers to a situation where the ECU can make adjustments, then has sensors it can reference to see the result of that adjustment, and then correct again if needed.

On the 2ZZ (and all other Toyotas using the "i" version of VVT) the ECU makes adjustments to the cam position, then looks back to the cam sensor to make sure it moved the amount the ECU desired. This is different than say my 20V, which simply moves the cam a preset amount and the ECU has no way to verify that the cam moved at all. VVT you could run with a Haltech (you can trigger it very similar to VTEC) but VVTi and VVTLi are a whole different ballgame. The "L" part of VVTLi is almost identical to Honda's VTEC, and would be fairly simple to setup. The closed loop control of the VVTi is not, if you want it setup right.


John

 

[RickyB]

PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU ASSUME... dunno where your coming up with this pro bono stuff and expecting the wiring directions to be handed to me.

WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR is the different standalone options, you know, the ones that would work best with my 2zz engine. Now, how does that constitute a list of directions and hours of consultation? OH, wait, maybe it was the whole trying to keep it within a budget that threw ya off?

I read you just fine. Guess what, every informational posting on this forum is pro bono work on the part of somebody (although those who just take without giving back never seem to realize it). My first reply gave you a full range of EMS budget options from the absolute cheapest to the absolute least effort on your part. I can handle realistic budgets even if they are tight, but I have this tendency to roll my eyes at underfunded pipe dreams.

Sorry to be such a hardass, but I've dealt with your type many times and it always starts with a simple question like what kind of EMS might work for me and develops into a never ending series of questions about wiring and tuning. Just look at your reply to my first response for a taste of what my life becomes like if I decide to really help you out. My email box is full of these. So, before you waste your time and that of others, I want you to be aware of what you are up against and that if you don't have what it takes in terms of commitment and budget, you are just going to waste your time and mine.

So you can give me attitude or you can give me a feeling that you are begining to appreciate what you are up against and that it may take more time, money and help from selfless angels on this forum than you first realized to reach your goal. It's your choice.

 

[blown59]

I read you just fine. Guess what, every informational posting on this forum is pro bono work on the part of somebody (although those who just take without giving back never seem to realize it). My first reply gave you a full range of EMS budget options from the absolute cheapest to the absolute least effort on your part. I can handle realistic budgets even if they are tight, but I have this tendency to roll my eyes at underfunded pipe dreams.

Sorry to be such a hardass, but I've dealt with your type many times and it always starts with a simple question like what kind of EMS might work for me and develops into a never ending series of questions about wiring and tuning. Just look at your reply to my first response for a taste of what my life becomes like if I decide to really help you out. My email box is full of these. So, before you waste your time and that of others, I want you to be aware of what you are up against and that if you don't have what it takes in terms of commitment and budget, you are just going to waste your time and mine.

So you can give me attitude or you can give me a feeling that you are begining to appreciate what you are up against and that it may take more time, money and help from selfless angels on this forum than you first realized to reach your goal. It's your choice.

Listen, I appreciate your help thus far, but if your gonna start stereotyping me and making assumptions... you dont need to post. I will be asking for assistance, no doubt, but if you dont want to provide thats your choise. There are some here that will and I will be greatful. I dont mind asking questions to get answers or to get a start in some direction. This is a swap that hasnt been attempted yet, so there are gonna be alot of questions. I kinda thought thats what the purpose of this forum is. I will be glad to assist others who want to attempt this swap in the future. Sorry, but this isnt my livelyhood and dont feel the need to charge for information.

This is getting way off topic... plain and simple... if you dont like me or my questions, dont reply!!!

 

[mr220v]

When I say closed loop I am referring to the VVTLi control, not the oxygen sensor. The term closed loop as used in this industry typically refers to a situation where the ECU can make adjustments, then has sensors it can reference to see the result of that adjustment, and then correct again if needed.

On the 2ZZ (and all other Toyotas using the "i" version of VVT) the ECU makes adjustments to the cam position, then looks back to the cam sensor to make sure it moved the amount the ECU desired. This is different than say my 20V, which simply moves the cam a preset amount and the ECU has no way to verify that the cam moved at all. VVT you could run with a Haltech (you can trigger it very similar to VTEC) but VVTi and VVTLi are a whole different ballgame. The "L" part of VVTLi is almost identical to Honda's VTEC, and would be fairly simple to setup. The closed loop control of the VVTi is not, if you want it setup right.


John

Yeah, only the high dollar setups are going to be able to run that fully variable cam advance feature as anything other than on/off. The Haltech I had was able to make adjustments based on o2 voltage and what ever you specified as stochiometric. If you wanted it to cruise lean, then just set the voltage at anything under 500mv. Get cruising maps half way right, and concentrate on the full throttle map. I think a haltech (or most other system) would get you 95% of what you needed to run the 2zzge.

 

[mr220v]

blown59,

Post any question here you want, don't hesitate. This site is a free resource. I think your main problem is that you haven't counted on the stock ecu being such a disaster to wire. It really might not be. I don't think you necessarily need to go standalone.

I think with a little effort, the stock system can be made to work. I'd like to know precisely what extra celica stuff you would need and a pinout for that celica ecu.

4age 20v stock ecu wiring is considered to be very difficult as well, but it can be done, and for me, has actually become routine. Btw, if you give up on your 2zz, I make a pnp 20v harness for $300.

The 2zzge wiring is going to have a few extra hurdles, but they should be surmountable.

 

[blown59]

blown59,

Post any question here you want, don't hesitate. This site is a free resource. I think your main problem is that you haven't counted on the stock ecu being such a disaster to wire. It really might not be. I don't think you necessarily need to go standalone.

I think with a little effort, the stock system can be made to work. I'd like to know precisely what extra celica stuff you would need and a pinout for that celica ecu.

4age 20v stock ecu wiring is considered to be very difficult as well, but it can be done, and for me, has actually become routine. Btw, if you give up on your 2zz, I make a pnp 20v harness for $300.

The 2zzge wiring is going to have a few extra hurdles, but they should be surmountable.

Thanks, I totally appreciate it. I havent ruled out the factory ecu, just dont know that ill be getting it to run in closed loop. Openloop is fine if i just want it to run, but I want to be able to have it perform to its max. This is why i was considering the standalones.. wanting to run closed loop which, according to the Electromotive Tech, the tec3 would do.

Ill keep that harness in mind...

I'd like to know precisely what extra celica stuff you would need and a pinout for that celica ecu.

I was told that i may need things like the factory guage cluster to get the ecu to run in closed loop. Ill have to mod the gas tank for the evap system and add those sensors. The gas tank mod may be a chore, but no big deal. Not when compared to installing a Celi guage cluster and wiring harness. Im going to have to research some of this info further.