[phantommaggot]

im shure this is frequently asked stuff.
but...
as soon as my corrado sells im going after an AW11.

what i need to know.
what is the easiest way to get the motor in the car wiring wise?
i was thinking just use the blacktop ecu, harness and so on..

what is the best way to make extra power with these engines??

is this swap pretty much bolt in, like i wont have to fab mounts or anything like that?

how does this engine feel compared to a GZE? is it more rev happy, or as torqy?

where is a good 20v recource site for parts, upgrades, faqs, so on.. when i search all i get are peoples writeups on swaps..

anyways
thanks

 

[kameleon]

Honestly unless you get one heck of a deal on a blacktop I would go with a silvertop. I say this for a few reasons:
1. Usually cheaper to purchase
2. More people running them so better support
3. The wiring master (mr220v) can make you a plug and play harness (HUGE plus here)
4. Responds better to mods than the blacktop

The biggest thing to me was the price I got my engine for. If you can't find a complete swap (i.e. engine, COMPLETE harness, ecu, AFM *if silvertop*, igniter/coil, etc) then expect to pay a good bit more for the parts. The harness can be worked around but not cheaply. If you even get a cut 20v harness mr220v can take it and your stock 16v harness and make you one heck of a plug and play harness. It is worth every penny especially since you can send it to him and by the time you put the engine in your harness is back. The ecu can usually be found on ebay if needed. The AFM (if silvertop) can be had off a 91-ish v6 camry. And finally the igniter/coil can be had off a MKII mr2, mid-90's 4runner v6, or v6 camry (can get exact years if needed off my epc).
Basically the 20v is a direct bolt in. No fab'd mounts are needed. Just reuse your 16v pass side mount. As for exhaust, cooling, and wiring that is where you have to get creative. The wiring is easily fixed (if silvertop) by mr220v. The cooling and exhaust are not that hard and many find it quite fun to do.
As far as responding to mods, the blactop is kinda maxxed out from what I understand. Not much else can be done to it to gain much more power. Plus on the blacktop you will need to do a little bit of cutting on the alt bracket if you use the 16v one (I would). The silvertop you don't have to. This is due to the hydraulic tensioner for the t-belt I do believe. There are a few people out there with modified silvertop's. Like I know of at least one turbo. There is at least one 7agte 20v also. (1.8L 20v turbo) using the silvertop head.

As for sites try EricS' site at www.padandwheels.com for a complete writeup on how he did his 20v blacktop. Or www.20vmki.com is another good site. Both those are "blacktop" sites but in general they are close enough for a silvertop too.

I have never driven or rode in a SC car so I cannot compare it to the 20v. But I can say that the 20v has a bit more torque than the 16v. It also is alot smoother throughout the rpm band. It is not peaky like the 16v, meaning past a certain rpm you get hella power. But no matter where you are in the rpm band it will most certainly go.

Hope that helps out some.

 

[phantommaggot]

thanks alot!!

ok so if i get an ecu, and complete harness i wont have to worry as much about wiring right?
and as far as mods go, ill atleast get a flywheel and clutch. probably velocity stacks or a getto ram air.. but can i get cams for it at all? or get adjustables and keep vvt? id like to be able to push the motor to around 9-9.5k rpms. but im guessing with vvt the cams and redline will stay the same..

is there any other difference between the silver and black tops other than a blacktop is MAP instead of AFM?

im trying to collect tons of info i can use, as quick as possible. im shure ill think of more..

thanks again!!

 

[kameleon]

Not really on the wiring. It is still a PITA if you ask me. That is why I recomend mr220v so highly. As for adjustable cam gears... only for the exhaust. If I were you I would just keep the stock stuff for a bit. If you want to turn around 9k-9.5k rpm you will need an upgraded oil pump at the very least. Believe me... the stock oil pump will crap out on you at around that rpm. But on a stock-ish engine you will net nothing by turning that fast. It will actually probably hurt more than help.

As for the difference here is a basic rundown

Silvertop: AFM, 10.4:1 Compression Ratio, approx 165hp at the flywheel
Blacktop: MAP, 11:1 Compression Ratio, approx 180hp at the flywheel

There are a few other minor differences but that is for another time.

Is this your first MR2? Just a crazy question.

 

[RulerofEarth]

Go with the silvertop. Those blacktops are too expensive. And I coulda sworn the difference between the two was 163hp and 165hp (with no ancillaries). I've never read 180hp. The map sensor and the 6speed would be the best reasons to go with the blacktop. But is it worth the cost.

I always recommend doing as much of your own work as possible. Its the best way to learn and the best way to become familiar with your machine. It really makes troubleshooting down the line much easier.

 

[phantommaggot]

it will be,
as of now i have a G60 corrado, i can never get ahead on it. so im gonna sell it. i had alot of plans for it. 16v swap, few extra pounds of boost the fun stiff..
but corrados are alot of upkeep. so im gonna go back to looking for a mr2.
i figure once i sell the mr2 ill be in the market for a mr2, or a turbo 2 FC, whatever comes along first. id say ill hold out for an mr2 unless i come across one pimp FC. ill probably still buy another crappy little VW, like a B3 passat, to beat around in till i get my rabbit up and running.

ill will certanily be looking into the silvertop for shure now,
can i run the blacktop MAP on it??
is it more rev happy, and will it handle the higher revs/ will getting it there hurt it as well.

ive kinda got my VW stuff down, but im shure toyota and VVT will be a whole nother world

thanks again!

edit for post above:

MAP was the main reason i was gonna go with the black top, so can i use blacktop MAP on a silvertop?? if so what would that require.

and as far as the 6 speed, i am also considering that but id probably end up just getting a Celica GTS 6 spd, as ive read i wont have to drill and such.

i do plan on doing as much of my work as i possibly can. i dont have any welding stuff so id say my local muffler shop will be helping me there..
i want to run a Aero Turbine exhaust with a faux cat ( cat split gutted and put around straight pipe, will appear as cat but wont be ) as there is no real emissions around here.
anyways im kinda ranting..

thanks

i really just cant get over this..

 

[RulerofEarth]

You can probably get a dirt cheap 20v without the electronics and or harness and just use a megasquirt that has has a map sensor.

 

[phantommaggot]

what exatly would i need to get with the engine to run it with megasquirt?
i know 2 other guys that run megasquirt on their cars so i could get help easy.

i keep seeing ignitor chips offered with motors, are those needed as well?
what Hp/Tq range can i hit with a 20v (no im not looking for RAW!! power or anything. but why spend that much more money on megasquirt when i can just put a blacktop in and leave it stock...)

 

[kameleon]

On stock electronics with a blacktop you should see approx 180hp at the flywheel. I would not expect more than about 120-130hp at the wheels. As for megasquirt I would say you need at least the plugs for the sensors and all. So basically just a cut harness (as in no ecu plugs) should suffice. The igniter can be had off a mid 90's 4runner v6 so if it is more than about $75 more for the igniter with the engine then don't do it.

 

[nw_mr2]

Your numbers are off... The blacktop is around 165hp and the silvertop is 160hp. FWIW, These numbers are overrated, most blacktops I see are in the 135-140whp range (stock) meaning a ST in good shap should put down around 125-130.

I'm planning on doing cam regrinds from TED Components and a Fidenza flywheel. I'm still unsure whether I want to do megasquirt and map sensor (If I did I would definitely get velocity stacks.

I'm hoping to have around 140+ at the wheels when I'm done, and I don't think it will be TOO difficult, especially with a dyno tune.

 

[phantommaggot]

so is it hard to break 160hp at the wheels?

 

[Spots]

so is it hard to break 160hp at the wheels?

A few months ago someone mentioned that a blacktop could reach 180-185bhp with (relatively) simple work... Exhaust, a little ignition timing and I think a prayer to your favourite Mayan gods. 160whp = ~190bhp for a FWD transmission like ours, too.

Consider, though, that 160bhp is already at the legendary naturally-aspirated 100hp/L mark. Getting more than that in a street-driven motor is a spectacular feat IMHO!

 

[nw_mr2]

These toyota ratings are flywheel... And I don't know how you plan to get 40 hp out of "Exhaust, a little ignition timing and I think a prayer to your favourite Mayan gods."

 

[phantommaggot]

so, straight pipe, to high flow muffler, velocity stacks, keep vvt and adjust timing.. or loose vvt get cam gears and adjust for max power and revs. ... i dont even see that bumping the HP that much
what limits the rev range/ powerband on that engine.. i know that on my vw the problem is flow, and with head work i can get my car to rev nicer and blow boost more effeicantly.

id love to get trd crank and a few other things.. i wish i had the money/ could track down a formula atlantic engine.. then id be straight

and thanks again, you folks have already given more info than i actually expected..

 

[Spots]

These toyota ratings are flywheel... And I don't know how you plan to get 40 hp out of "Exhaust, a little ignition timing and I think a prayer to your favourite Mayan gods."

The blacktop is around 165hp

180-165 = 15hp, not 40hp?

Don't ask me how either, I'm not the person who said it could be done in the first place. It seems a pretty common suggestion/rumour that the 20 valves have a fair bit of power hidden away in proper ignition timing, however, especially on 4AGE.net.

That said, "a prayer to your favourite Mayan gods" was meant to suggest my own skepticism. Cam work (and other stuff) is probably involved too, which is also why I said the over-the-top Mayan god thing.

Anyhow. Perhaps I should have been more clear about it and less sarcastic.

 

[nw_mr2]

Oops, I thought you were saying 180whp.

As for upgrades, your best bet will probably be with cams, airflow (exhaust and intake/stacks), and a good programmable ecu and tune.

http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=95418
http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm

edit: sorry if I sounded sarcastic by that previous comment, didn't mean to sound like a prick

 

[Spots]

No problem.

(Oops.. looks like my edit appeared just after your reply.)

FWIW, I'm rather tempted to swap in a blacktop in the coming months. If that goes ahead (if), I'll be sure to document any tinkering I do for future reference.

I'm surprised our AW11 20V owners haven't documented their experiences (eg: dyno sheets) a bit more... or am I just not searching in the right places here?

 

[nw_mr2]

Nope, I've had a really hard time finding info of that sort. There does seem to be quite a bit of documentation when it comes to part numbers and wiring though.

 

[phantommaggot]

do you have to drop VVT to run megasquirt?

 

[EricS]

My dyno:
http://www.padandwheels.com/mr2/blacktopproject/dyno.html

20vmki has a dyno floating around here too. Couldn't find it on his site.

[edit]Found it: http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=107435 [/edit]