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Discussion Starter #21
pablo said:
Are you under 5' tall? The Audi V8 swap had cabin intrusion and that motor was what, 20" long? That engine has to be 10" longer?
Yep the audi V8 was a lot shorter, but remember it was fitted to a Mk1, this engine is going into a Mk2, we have much more room between the rear hub centre and seat back to play with. Also i'm not using the same transmission as before, i can save 7" of length by using Audi's 2010 A4 unit which has the output shafts right at the flywheel face.

It'll fit, we've been here before.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
"well its finally the year 2021 and we got it running"

They said that about the V8 swap, that only took 18 months from start to finish.
 

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Bill Strong said:
I'll make you a V12 forum later Paul.
This is cool, because the BMW V12s are easy to get here.

should just call it the "outrageous engine swap forum" and throw the WW2 fighter plane powered MKII in there.
 

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I've done the math in my head A LOT over the past few years, and while I agree a v12 can probably fit in there, how are the drive axle's going to line up without stretching the chassis?

You can only cut into the cabin so far before your face is in the dash, and rear mounting the engine would just mean you'll have a half an engine sticking out the back of the car.

I was researching a V8 swap north/south without cutting into the cabin (definitely the trunk) just to see if it's possible. I came up with some ridiculous ideas to get the power from the transaxle to the hubs like using chains, stacking differentials, making mini driveshafts etc etc. I deemed it too complicated for me to figure out. None of those idea's would have worked with the kind of torque a v8 or bigger puts down.
If you don't mind the engine sticking out between your tail lights a porsche rear engine transaxle is the way to go :thumbup

Best of luck to you Paul. I'm definitely looking forward to this. The v8 mk1 was a lot of fun following and I'm sure the v12 mk2 will be just as awesome. subscribed.
 

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Lol epic. If this can really be done, you're the man to do it Paul. Honestly though, why not the V10 from the M5? It makes power that will live up to this crazy build and I believe its shorter than an LS1.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
LOL cheers Bill, i feel all special now, my own V12 forum! Hopefully it will pave the way for others to have a go as well. We discussed the W16 and it would fit into a Mk2 (not much harder realistically than the audi V8)

The LS9 swap north/south swap would be pure insanium, somebody has to do that.

Irmr2, i know what you mean, it seems pretty impossible but we have found a way to make it happen. The usual Audi TDi trans that i used on the V8 won't work on the V12 swap, because even though the axles are near the bellhousing face they are still giving away a good 7" of drivetrain length. That's 7" more the engine has to poke into the cabin, now you can get away with that on the V8, it's very short, but the V12 is a long engine (29" unmodified)... that would put your face in the steering wheel.

Luckily Audi have just started producing this bad boy...



Take a look at where the output tulips are, right on the bellhousing face, that's a good 7" saved. This is a 6 speed box and attached to the 2010 model A4. We have one of these on the way. This trans would also bolt to the Audi V8 "i think" without an adapter plate, meaning a north/south V8 can happen with no front firewall mods..... uber cool.

I have so far lost 2" from the front of the V12, which gives me an overall length saving of 9" at the moment, that puts me into audi V8 length territory, which we know fits.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Lime-Light said:
Lol epic. If this can really be done, you're the man to do it Paul. Honestly though, why not the V10 from the M5? It makes power that will live up to this crazy build and I believe its shorter than an LS1.
Thanks! The engine choice is not about outright power, it's purely a cost and availability issue, the V10 M5 would make a much better candidate, as would the LS9 or W16, the goal here is simply to say a V12 Mr2 has been built, people can hang 4 turbos off the side of them later on if they wish :)
 

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On the plus side, the M70 is a torque monster, with 300ft/lbs plus from 1500 rpm to 5500. More than any Audi V8.



No doubt it will be a fun car to drive...
 

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paul woods said:
Yep the audi V8 was a lot shorter, but remember it was fitted to a Mk1, this engine is going into a Mk2,
the audi V8 longitudinal installation pablo's referring to was in a mk2. it poked quite a ways into the cabin. i think that's the point he's trying to make. i forget whose car it was.

that new tranny would certainly help though.
 

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scarecrowX said:
the audi V8 longitudinal installation pablo's referring to was in a mk2. it poked quite a ways into the cabin. i think that's the point he's trying to make. i forget whose car it was.

that new tranny would certainly help though.
I think it was Mike_H? That is definitely a cool tranny though.

One thing I'm curious about is how close that engine is to the McLaren F1 engine. I know they are not the same, I've read the wiki so I don't need anyone telling me it's more closely related to the M3 motor. But that M70 is closely related to the M50, and the M3 motor is just the S50, which isn't anything but a cylinder head and additional displacement physically. M50 in 92 was a 188hp motor, x 2 banks, is close to the dyno posted below. And take the 321hp the Euro M3 was making at the time of the McLaren F1, x 2 banks and you have very close to the 627ish the McLaren was rated at.

Of course than the induction system on the McLaren is going to be much improved over what's on there, with the dual injector setup and everything. And I'm sure the headers are better, the main thing I'm concerned about is the major engine castings.

Cliffs: Will putting two M3 heads onto that V12 and boring it as far as possible get you close to the engine in the McLaren F1?
 

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http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531845

Post #5.

To sum it up, basically nothing is interchangeable with the M70. It may be possible to swap the I6 heads but the M70 is belt-driven whereas the S50 I6 is chain. Also one of the heads would need to be backwards. The F1 heads do not match at all, the block is much different. There is very little aftermarket available since the M70 heads flow so poorly even when modified. Basically the best bet is to leave it alone and enjoy the noise or slap giant turbos on to it to make less-than-stellar power.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Guys the problem here is you are severely limited by how much power the trans will take... these trannys are normally on 2.0ltr engines producing under 200bhp, so while i agree it would be possible to fit a big exotic engine (presuming the BMW V12 fits), there is no trans solution that could cope with very big power levels, well i'm guessing there, but i don't think Audi would make that box capable of holding more than what? 50% on top of it's original engine power output?
 

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The only manual possibility i can think of Paul would be the RS-4 box. It's a similar design to the 2010 A4 unit you are using though it's 4WD. It is possible to remove the Rear propshaft bit and blank. I am pretty sure the adjustable torque split the RS-4 employs is from a centre diff so this may be a "better" high hp solution. MTM in Germany whap Supercharger and whole host of upgrades on the already perky RS-4 to take it to 535hp on the standard box. Sounds immense!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBkX8GS5FoY

EDIT;

Though thinking about it ... it sends 60%-80% (i think) of power to the rears so the front diff may not be up to snuff. Not to mention rarity and cost of course.
 

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Lime-Light said:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531845

Post #5.

To sum it up, basically nothing is interchangeable with the M70. It may be possible to swap the I6 heads but the M70 is belt-driven whereas the S50 I6 is chain. Also one of the heads would need to be backwards. The F1 heads do not match at all, the block is much different. There is very little aftermarket available since the M70 heads flow so poorly even when modified. Basically the best bet is to leave it alone and enjoy the noise or slap giant turbos on to it to make less-than-stellar power.
Nothing is directly interchangeable. Moving cam drives isn't that difficult in the big picture. This is coming from someone with a Bridgeport in the garage, but I don't see it as any greater of an undertaking than what Paul Woods is doing here. Most of the coolant and oil passages can at least be massaged to fit, And structurally the heads are a bolt on. Might be a fun project to redesign the cam drive on it.

paul woods said:
Guys the problem here is you are severely limited by how much power the trans will take... these trannys are normally on 2.0ltr engines producing under 200bhp, so while i agree it would be possible to fit a big exotic engine (presuming the BMW V12 fits), there is no trans solution that could cope with very big power levels, well i'm guessing there, but i don't think Audi would make that box capable of holding more than what? 50% on top of it's original engine power output?
You should look at what some of the replica guys are doing with the 01E, 016 and 01X. The 01E will supposedly hold 7-800ft lbs. WAAAYYY overbuilt for the engine it came with. Those are all traditional gearboxes as far as Audi goes, and I'd be curious to see how sturdy that case is built around the differential. But the gearbox might be sturdier than we presume.

dgh938peg said:
The only manual possibility i can think of Paul would be the RS-4 box. It's a similar design to the 2010 A4 unit you are using though it's 4WD. It is possible to remove the Rear propshaft bit and blank. I am pretty sure the adjustable torque split the RS-4 employs is from a centre diff so this may be a "better" high hp solution. MTM in Germany whap Supercharger and whole host of upgrades on the already perky RS-4 to take it to 535hp on the standard box. Sounds immense!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBkX8GS5FoY

EDIT;

Though thinking about it ... it sends 60%-80% (i think) of power to the rears so the front diff may not be up to snuff. Not to mention rarity and cost of course.
The main problem with converting the awd audi boxes to fwd is the hollow lagshaft. The output shaft to the front diff runs through it. A few people have attempted it on some of the GT40 replica sites.
 

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That shot that one down then! :smile:

Knowing what these manufacturers are like there WILL be cross matching parts to take advantage of. But it's all waaaaaaay beyond me :thumbup
 
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