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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is just a baseline for my MS and cam setup, Ive been real curious as to how much I have gained after all this, I am also curious to see what kind of gains I will get from ITBs in the future.

There is definitely some room for improvement, at 3000-3400, 4000-5000 and 6000+ (holy crap my whole tune!) but for a start I cant say that Im not pleased.

On the dyno we had issues getting a tach signal, that may explain some of the other issues I have like my rev limiter not working. I suspect that its happening somewhere around 7000. The chart goes upto 7600 even tho my MS logs show 7999 and the dyno operator was going past 8000. I set my rev limiter soft/hard limits to 9000 for the dyno and told them to stop at 8500.


The lean spike at 3000~ is an issue I have with accell enrichment. I spent a decent amount of times setting up a map/tps blended setup with fixed the majority of the on/off throttle lean out issues that I have been having under normal driving. I didnt get to spend any time with the tps enrichment settings, which once I get those dialed in that loss of power should disappear.

As for the dip from 4000-5000 I seen that same dip on another chart that had a very similar setup as mine, tho not as bad. I think that I may actually be a little too rich at point sense my AFR trends in my datalogs show an interesting pattern.


Anyways this was 100% tuned by feel (aka butt dyno), and so far Im pretty happy. I went in hoping to break the 100# barrier and succeeded :thumbup


I have a video of the run uploading now, Ill also post better charts once they are emailed to me.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Todays run is in red, the blue run is my previous setup with stock cams and stock ecu. Its nice to see that even with my intake cam advanced 7* that I dont sacrifice any bottom end with the 264/256 setup compared to stock cams. In fact I have gains everywhere. This gives me alot of promise when it comes to upgrading to a 272/264 setup in the future, but Ill wait until I have the itbs setup before deciding on that.
 

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Nice man.

Ok I don't know a lot about ideal NA AFRs but you look like you are in the mid 13s. I don't think that's too rich. In fact it might be a bit lean. Now that depends on other things as well, richer may allow you to run more agressive timing or other things that could gain you more.

On top of that your old run and new run are closest where your AFRs are farthest apart. In other words your previous run was competing best against your current setup at it's richest point. It makes me wonder how it would compare if you tried to mirror the AFRs of your previous run with timing optimized as much as possible.
 

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yoshimitsuspeed said:
Nice man.

Ok I don't know a lot about ideal NA AFRs but you look like you are in the mid 13s. I don't think that's too rich. In fact it might be a bit lean. Now that depends on other things as well, richer may allow you to run more agressive timing or other things that could gain you more.

On top of that your old run and new run are closest where your AFRs are farthest apart. In other words your previous run was competing best against your current setup at it's richest point. It makes me wonder how it would compare if you tried to mirror the AFRs of your previous run with timing optimized as much as possible.


I would assume that dotted line is where you wanna be, funny you pointed that out, i just texted him about the spike at 2500-3500. if you look where the blue (old) run gets closest to that dotted line, it looks like it gets closest to the red (new) run that he did power wise.
 

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The dotted line is where you want to be if you are running boost (12:1). Seems like this is a default setting on dynos or something cause I always see it set there.

Judging from this graph, leaning it out to mid 13's is what gained him power. He was running too rich on the first run.

Nice power you're making there with the original 4AGE :thumbup
 

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What kind of fuel you running? The E10 slurry that everyone seems to sell tends to increase the required AFR by a couple tenths, so keep that in mind when you're figuring out your target. Otherwise nice gains, I didn't expect to see the entire curve beat the stock setup on an unfinished tune. You gonna try converting more people to the dark side now?
 

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I actually just held a straight edge to the screen and it looks like your red AFRS are more in the high 13s to 14s.
Ravicai said:
The dotted line is where you want to be if you are running boost (12:1). Seems like this is a default setting on dynos or something cause I always see it set there.

Judging from this graph, leaning it out to mid 13's is what gained him power. He was running too rich on the first run.

Nice power you're making there with the original 4AGE :thumbup
But if you look at it closely it's errie how close a relationship the power has to the AFRs.
start at 4k RPM. The old setup was at one of it's leanest points and also very far away from the power levels of the second pull.

5K RPM blue AFR line is richest and furthest away from the red line and it's coming the closest to competing on power.

6K once again the closer the AFRs are together the further the power levels are apart.

6500 as soon as the AFRs start to pull apart the power levels start to come closer.


At about 5200 the red AFR peaks and if you go up to the hp/tq curves there is a noticeable dip there.
at 5400 it goes a bit richer and hp/tq curves pop up a little.
I'm no expert at reading plots but it just seems to me that motor want's more fuel.
I also think you want to run richer as the RPMS raise. Congrats on pulling off such a flat Afr curve on your first try. I think ideally though you will want it to taper down a little bit.
I am also caught up by the spike at 4k.
I'd really love to see what the hp/tq curve looked like if you kept 3500 to 4k about the same then 4k to 5k dropped to about 13 then slowly tapered from there to 12-12.5 at redline.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The first run is my old setup running slighly lower compression and stock cams and stock ECU. Right now Im hitting 87% duty cycle at 7600rpm running high 13s so any richer and Im looking for trouble. My whole goal behind my tune was to attempt to get the same power that I had with the stock ecu with my current setup while having gains over my old setup from idle to redline.Im happy to see that I was successful with both of those goals, it gives me a bit more confidence in my butt dyno, it also gives me a target for calibrating dynolicious. The funny thing was that this whole thing was spur of the moment since I was just cruising around trying to burn up gas and passed drift office and noticed they were open and decided to stop in and say hi. Hi turned into "Do you have any dyno time available any time soon?" Which I was asked "How soon?" And I responded "Now?" hehe cool guys for sure.





yoshimitsuspeed said:
I actually just held a straight edge to the screen and it looks like your red AFRS are more in the high 13s to 14s.

But if you look at it closely it's errie how close a relationship the power has to the AFRs.
start at 4k RPM. The old setup was at one of it's leanest points and also very far away from the power levels of the second pull.

5K RPM blue AFR line is richest and furthest away from the red line and it's coming the closest to competing on power.

6K once again the closer the AFRs are together the further the power levels are apart.

6500 as soon as the AFRs start to pull apart the power levels start to come closer.


At about 5200 the red AFR peaks and if you go up to the hp/tq curves there is a noticeable dip there.
at 5400 it goes a bit richer and hp/tq curves pop up a little.
I'm no expert at reading plots but it just seems to me that motor want's more fuel.
I also think you want to run richer as the RPMS raise. Congrats on pulling off such a flat Afr curve on your first try. I think ideally though you will want it to taper down a little bit.
I am also caught up by the spike at 4k.
I'd really love to see what the hp/tq curve looked like if you kept 3500 to 4k about the same then 4k to 5k dropped to about 13 then slowly tapered from there to 12-12.5 at redline.

Good observations. I have a set of smallport fuel injectors on the way so that I can get my AFRs in check. Im actually aiming for 13.1 straight across, possibly as rich as 12.8 from 6000-8200 as a start. I think I may also retard my intake cam some, its advanced 7* right now and judging from the graph Im still making power at 7600rpm so I may retard it a bit and see if I pick up some more midrange. I believe if there were not tach signal issues and we went to 8200 it would have broke 130whp.

I was also surprised at the large spike in power at 3200, I can definitely feel it but didnt expect an almost 9# gain that early. I actually like the trend, if I can get that much of a gain throughout the torque curve Ill have a hell of a ride.


Anyone know how much timing advance is added when the dizzy is rotated at full advance? Right now in my tune Im running 36* advance at WOT till 6000rpm then Im running 38* to redline. I did that anticipating my peak torque to come in around that, my understanding is that is where you want the most fuel and most advance since cylinder pressure will be at its peak, along with airflow. Im curious to see what 36* from 6000 to redline would get me as well as what 38* from 4000-6000 then 36* to redline would get me.



Also Ideally at WOT I should be at atmospheric correct? Right at 3800-3900 where I have the big lump Im at 102.6 kpa (boost baby! haha) and I maintain 100kpa until 6400 roughly, then Im in the high 90s. It gives me an idea that something isnt right from 6000 to redline, given that my torque falls faster than stock and that Im under vacuum. Ill have to look into the effects of ignition timing on manifold pressure a bit more. I have seen some info in regards for tuning for economy when it comes to timing advance and manifold pressure.





Ghost my specs are:

9.4:1 bottom end
Smallport head shaved 0.020"
Smallport intake manifold
TRD 0.5mm Headgasket
HKS 264 intake cam advanced 7*
HKS 256 exhaust cam retarded 2*
HKS valve springs
Pacesetter 4-1 header
2.25 exhaust
Short ram intake
Megasquirt DIYPNP

Im at an estimated 10.7:1 c/r. Combustion chambers and intake ports are 100% stock, exhaust ports were smoothed out a bit no further than 2" in, with the dividers not touched. I mostly wanted to get the carbon out of there from my oil burning days lol.
 

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jimmer411 said:
Also Ideally at WOT I should be at atmospheric correct? Right at 3800-3900 where I have the big lump Im at 102.6 kpa (boost baby! haha) and I maintain 100kpa until 6400 roughly, then Im in the high 90s. It gives me an idea that something isnt right from 6000 to redline, given that my torque falls faster than stock and that Im under vacuum. Ill have to look into the effects of ignition timing on manifold pressure a bit more. I have seen some info in regards for tuning for economy when it comes to timing advance and manifold pressure.

.
Where are you pulling this measurement from?
 

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hm, should i make a joke about how a SUV can still pull on you, or should i congratulate you on breaking the 125 hp mark? I think the SUV joke will motivate you more to make it faster, but it seems like a very cruel (but honest) joke to the fragile ego of the n/a guys.... :dontknow:
 

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I agree with what yoshi is saying on the AFRs, on my engine i have tested changing* the AFRs from the 10's all the way to the 14's at WOT and it FEELS (key word here) that it makes more power at high 12's to low 13's, past that and it seems to fall off a little.

*This was done by tweaking the AFM so in turn it tweaks the ignition timing, how much? i dont know. *

yoshimitsuspeed said:
I actually just held a straight edge to the screen and it looks like your red AFRS are more in the high 13s to 14s.

But if you look at it closely it's errie how close a relationship the power has to the AFRs.
start at 4k RPM. The old setup was at one of it's leanest points and also very far away from the power levels of the second pull.

5K RPM blue AFR line is richest and furthest away from the red line and it's coming the closest to competing on power.

6K once again the closer the AFRs are together the further the power levels are apart.

6500 as soon as the AFRs start to pull apart the power levels start to come closer.


At about 5200 the red AFR peaks and if you go up to the hp/tq curves there is a noticeable dip there.
at 5400 it goes a bit richer and hp/tq curves pop up a little.
I'm no expert at reading plots but it just seems to me that motor want's more fuel.
I also think you want to run richer as the RPMS raise. Congrats on pulling off such a flat Afr curve on your first try. I think ideally though you will want it to taper down a little bit.
I am also caught up by the spike at 4k.
I'd really love to see what the hp/tq curve looked like if you kept 3500 to 4k about the same then 4k to 5k dropped to about 13 then slowly tapered from there to 12-12.5 at redline.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
mk1noob said:
hm, should i make a joke about how a SUV can still pull on you, or should i congratulate you on breaking the 125 hp mark? I think the SUV joke will motivate you more to make it faster, but it seems like a very cruel (but honest) joke to the fragile ego of the n/a guys.... :dontknow:

I have yet to find an suv that can pull on me. What's funny is torqueless NA hondas have been whiping their asses with turbo cars for years at the strip. I've seen crx and civic hatches run low to mid 13s making 150whp and barely hitting 110# peak. Yet the mk1 sc is lucky to run a 14.2 with 160# at the wheels.


I fully aim to make more power. I've seen atleast 1 other 4age with the same cams and build as mine break 140whp so I know it's do able. I'm just taking baby steps here. The best part is I've made all this power without spending the thousands that people make it sound like it requires. I'm in 20v territory for about the same price as a 20v swap with more flexibility, parts availability and more room for improvement with less investment. My next goal is to get a base tune on ITBs to the same point my current setup is or better. So far everyone says tuning ITBs is near impossible for an end user without tons of time and problems, I aim to prove that wrong.

Don't get me wrong, the feeling of instant power is nice and the idea behind the most hp per $$ is the best choice for 99% of the people out there. I could have swapped a 20v in and been right where I'm at or swapped a gze and grinned every time I hit the gas instead. But as much as I can think about how awesome it would be to hit the gas and have ungodly amounts of power and be faster than everything else on the road nothing out there comes close to the feeling of accomplishment that I have gotten from building and tuning every aspect of my engine and seeing the results of my own labor. I'm that last 1% that values the knowledge and experience gained along the way far more than the instant gratification that comes from a bolt up pnp swap. Either way I have a solid foundation for whatever build I decide on. Who knows maybe I'll try my hand at a turbo setup in the future when my tuni ability is more developed. Till then nothing trumps a light weight high revving car, especially at sea level ;)
 

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jimmer411 said:
I'm pulling my MAP reading from the 3 prong vacuum thing on the back of the intake manifold.
I wouldn't use that. It has a very restrictive filter in it, unless you drilled it out which is a pain in the ass.
It will throw off readings and delay the actual pressure to your map.
Probably not messing up your wot readings much if at all but it will mess up quick throttle input readings.
There's a slight chance that could explain your heavy leanout and tq dip at 3200.
The map is still reading vacuum and fueling for it while the motor is actually seeing a lot more air. I learned this on my first turbo build. I had my vac/boost gauge hooked up to that thing and my boost readings were all delayed and weird.
Someone else here on the board told me about that filter and I drilled it out and it totally changed my readings. Like I said though that's a pain. I'd suggest just finding a different port.

There is no way your plenum should be seeing positive pressure. No where in the system really. At the port there can be high pressure waves and if they line up properly can increase cyl filling but they would be accompanied by low pressure waves and so fast your gauge would read the average which would be no higher than atmospheric.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I didn't drill anything out on that 3 prong fitting. Any of the ports on the TB good source?


I figured the positive manifold pressure wasnt really actual pressure made, but when I seen 102kpa I couldn't help but laugh lol. I'm more interested in the the changes at 6000 where it dips into he mid 90s.

I'm 99% sure I can fix the sudden leanout on throttle by tweaking my accell enrichment settings but I will look into a better MAP source. I'm also running a slightly thinner vacuum line for my MAP signal since it's all I could find local.
 

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Shoot, I need to get another dyno done now that my engine's running better. You have more peak hp than me lol. I still have 40% more torque though. I REALLY need the DIYPNP. That and a tuneup, a new distributor to stop the leak, larger intake piping, a larger SC, etc, etc, etc. Mainly I just need money :(.
 

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filonin_2 said:
Shoot, I need to get another dyno done now that my engine's running better. You have more peak hp than me lol. I still have 40% more torque though. I REALLY need the DIYPNP. That and a tuneup, a new distributor to stop the leak, larger intake piping, a larger SC, etc, etc, etc. Mainly I just need money :(.
Lol I know how you feel.

Jimmer I think any of the ports that tap post butterfly would be fine but I'm not pos.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
filonin_2 said:
Shoot, I need to get another dyno done now that my engine's running better. You have more peak hp than me lol. I still have 40% more torque though. I REALLY need the DIYPNP. That and a tuneup, a new distributor to stop the leak, larger intake piping, a larger SC, etc, etc, etc. Mainly I just need money :(.


Yes you need the pnp kit!

Are wideband o2 sensors legal in CA? I mean as a modification, technically it's a exhaust modification if you add another o2 bung right? Does CA go as far as having you remove the carpet in the trunk to physically show them the ecu? If not you can just run a dummy afm that's been hollowed out and no one will know the difference. Wouldn't be hard to mount the IAT sensor in side and wire it to the inside of the afm. Remove the afm cover, drill a bile and pull the wires up.



Lol so that's 1whp more than you?
 

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jimmer411 said:
Yes you need the pnp kit!

Are wideband o2 sensors legal in CA? I mean as a modification, technically it's a exhaust modification if you add another o2 bung right? Does CA go as far as having you remove the carpet in the trunk to physically show them the ecu? If not you can just run a dummy afm that's been hollowed out and no one will know the difference. Wouldn't be hard to mount the IAT sensor in side and wire it to the inside of the afm. Remove the afm cover, drill a bile and pull the wires up.



Lol so that's 1whp more than you?
Why would you need another 02 bung? You only need one. Replace the NB with a WB.
You might be able to fit a microsquirt or other MS into the stock ECU case.
 
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