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Discussion Starter #21
Real numbers.
2762 lbs
200 hp
151 lb/ft
$24930
So it is worse than we had hoped, but better than we had feared.
 

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I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I came across it and was impressed with the hypothetical projections and the number extrapolation. It was pretty clever, imo. (Ok, so I was also entertained by the bickering :smile: )

But I happened to catch a few articles this morning. Along with this thread they got me thinking. Now that we have some hind-sight, post-FRS launch... It occurred to me that Toyota's deliberate decision to market the FRS here as a Scion, has left the door wide open for a solid sports-car entry for the Toyota brand. I don't think it would be an entry level-car as Scion seems to have picked up the mantel as an entry-level gateway to the entire world of Toyota products.

I personally feel that the speculation others have that the next generation Supra would be a GTR competitor feels a bit off to me. A more logical turn of events seems for the "MR2UPRA" :p to be more of a solid mid-line player. At the same level of the 370Z, STI, Camaro, etc... The LFA, which is utterly irrelevant both economically, and fiscally for Toyota needs to move down market. I can envision that car getting revamped with more pedestrian build methodology to become a direct competitor with the GTR and incoming NSX at right around the same price-point $90K-$130K

Now I have absolutely NOTHING to base that on other than my own pure speculation and intuition. The bottom line is if Toyota is serious about capturing market share in the sports-car world, they'll do it at the entry level and the mid level. The reality is that the LFA isn't even a GTR competitor. It's wildly overpriced and it's performance, at least in the real world always plays second fiddle to the GTR which costs almost 3 times less.

Toyota needs a car to bridge the gap between the FRS and the LFA. They need their own Mustang GT, or 370Z, etc... To make money selling cars you need to cast a wide net. There's no profit in niche cars like the LFA.

I just can't see this going any other way. And honestly... this seems like a good thing.

Here are links to the articles:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/20/subaru-brz-scion-fr-s-lead-list-of-fastest-selling-cars/

http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/1205_toyota_supra_successor_back_in_the_pipeline/

I thought this was interesting :smile:
 

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The Supra (ever since it stopped being a Celica) was always supposed to be a large GT car to compete with other big Japanese GT cars. This would be a different class of car and the name wouldn't make sense, and if it was a toyota would be exactly what it's supposed to be, a resurrected lightweight rwd corolla. They should make the new mr2 with this car's parts bin, except for the engine. A 2arfe would be nice.
 

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The reason the Spyder production was stopped was because Toyota did not want to update the car to compete with the NC miata. It's not coincidence that the NC miata came out in 2006 and spyder production stopped in 2005.

Similarly any new MR2 will need to compete with the ND Miata. That means, if built Toyota will make it light, at least 30mpg, and less than $30K.

I see the next MR2 as a scion with a small Scion engine.
 

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skunkmr2 said:
I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I came across it and was impressed with the hypothetical projections and the number extrapolation. It was pretty clever, imo. (Ok, so I was also entertained by the bickering :smile: )

But I happened to catch a few articles this morning. Along with this thread they got me thinking. Now that we have some hind-sight, post-FRS launch... It occurred to me that Toyota's deliberate decision to market the FRS here as a Scion, has left the door wide open for a solid sports-car entry for the Toyota brand. I don't think it would be an entry level-car as Scion seems to have picked up the mantel as an entry-level gateway to the entire world of Toyota products.

I personally feel that the speculation others have that the next generation Supra would be a GTR competitor feels a bit off to me. A more logical turn of events seems for the "MR2UPRA" :p to be more of a solid mid-line player. At the same level of the 370Z, STI, Camaro, etc... The LFA, which is utterly irrelevant both economically, and fiscally for Toyota needs to move down market. I can envision that car getting revamped with more pedestrian build methodology to become a direct competitor with the GTR and incoming NSX at right around the same price-point $90K-$130K

Now I have absolutely NOTHING to base that on other than my own pure speculation and intuition. The bottom line is if Toyota is serious about capturing market share in the sports-car world, they'll do it at the entry level and the mid level. The reality is that the LFA isn't even a GTR competitor. It's wildly overpriced and it's performance, at least in the real world always plays second fiddle to the GTR which costs almost 3 times less.

Toyota needs a car to bridge the gap between the FRS and the LFA. They need their own Mustang GT, or 370Z, etc... To make money selling cars you need to cast a wide net. There's no profit in niche cars like the LFA.

I just can't see this going any other way. And honestly... this seems like a good thing.

Here are links to the articles:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/20/subaru-brz-scion-fr-s-lead-list-of-fastest-selling-cars/

http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/1205_toyota_supra_successor_back_in_the_pipeline/

I thought this was interesting :smile:

I dont' think that article is credible. The Ganzo racing MR-S used just a regular spyder chassis to build the MR-S hybrid prototype.

I doubt Toyota would build a new car based on a 15 year old spyder chassis as that article indicates.
 

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Silversprint said:
The reason the Spyder production was stopped was because Toyota did not want to update the car to compete with the NC miata.
Aaaand nobody wanted to buy them either, really. And they're useless if they're your only car. And they were slow. ;)

Toyota knew then (and still know now) that sportscars aren't money-makers for them. Slapping a Scion badge onto a Subaru was a relatively easy fix for the most part!


I would put money down RIGHT NOW if they announced another MR2, though. Especially if it were hybrid. They already have the powertrain (FWD Highlander 3.5L V6 hybrid).. just stick it in the back of some cobbled-together IS-C chassis and sell it to me! :D
 

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Conor said:
Aaaand nobody wanted to buy them either, really. And they're useless if they're your only car. And they were slow. ;)

Toyota knew then (and still know now) that sportscars aren't money-makers for them. Slapping a Scion badge onto a Subaru was a relatively easy fix for the most part!


I would put money down RIGHT NOW if they announced another MR2, though. Especially if it were hybrid. They already have the powertrain (FWD Highlander 3.5L V6 hybrid).. just stick it in the back of some cobbled-together IS-C chassis and sell it to me! :D
While I'll agree on most of this, I would avoid putting in a hybrid powerplant due to weight. Now, if it had electric motors driving the front on either side and could vector with a 2gr in the back, then maybe it'd be worth the weight. By then though, it would be $35+k. I think the frs is the new iteration of a parts bin style sports car like the mr2. They realized that in this crappy world economy, a sports car needs to do some double duty. That gives you options, you have sports / lux (IS350 covers that), sports / economy/commuter (this is where the frs fits in) and sports / family car (IS fits here somewhat and camry v6 maybe, but there is room for a GT car like this, IMO). I would still love to see a turbo model frs or brz STI (turbo). Think about a sub 2800 lb car with 280+ hp and a low cog? mmmmm. :thumbup Not to mention that drop top version will be out soon.
 

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Kerry's Input on the new "mr2"

A true sportscar is a two seater.
Weight: the MR2 III weighed ~2300 pounds for the legal USD version, if the car had NOT been a convertible, ideally the car would have been cheaper and lighter. 2600 Pounds should be the maximum weight.

The Subaru/Toyota joint effort will NOT be a success, sure initial supply will be limited to prop up prices and give the illusion of a highly sought after car. This car will be like the Honda CRZ, not a good hybrid and not a good CRX either.

$30k?
For that type of money (probably less with dealer incentives, ect.) one could buy a new Mustang with 300+ HP and 31 MPG.

Quality?
Ford has surpassed Toyota lately.

New MR2 should be <2600 pound 200 ponies without turbocharging, and if the Mustang can get 30-31 mpg HWY, the MR2 should get 35. In the 1990's, 300HP LT1 Corvettes were getting low 30's HWY MPG.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
People complained that the MKIII was too impractical, so when the BRZ comes out and has a back seat it is too practical. You see why Toyota can't please everyone, since everyone disagrees. I have seen a few BRZ's and one FRS and they look great. I will hold off on final judgement until I get to drive one properly and see if it is a sports car.

BTW Kerry, Mustang can't be a sportscar, it has a back seat!
 

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Discussion Starter #31
BTW if only a two seater can be a sports car then the McLaren F1 was not, since it had seating for 3!
 

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LT1 getting low 30's MPG? huh? i had a 94 camaro Z28 (LT1, almost exact same as corvette but small differences gave corvette slightly more power) and i got no where near 30MPG! i was lucky to get half that on the street and didn't even hit 20MPG on the highway with I/H/E. you would be doing good to get 25 HWY MPG out of a late gen LS1
 

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These days you've got direct injection for ultra lean burning, improved engine management and knock control, not to mention turning off cylinders entirely
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Back to the critical task of positioning the FT86 in history. Having looked it over and considered it, they have created a new 1987-88 924S. This car, long thought to be one of the great "driver's cars" of all time appears to be a startling benchmark.
1988 Porsche 924S 2.5 liter inline 4 158 hp 2734 lbs retail price $26,560
2013 Scion FRS 2.0 liter opposed 4 200hp 2730 lbs retail price $24,930
Those prices are not adjusted but are in 1988 dollars to 2012 dollars.
Should allows the 6 spd FRS at the same weight and better power to embarass the "classic".
 

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mr2by4 said:
Back to the critical task of positioning the FT86 in history. Having looked it over and considered it, they have created a new 1987-88 924S. This car, long thought to be one of the great "driver's cars" of all time appears to be a startling benchmark.
1988 Porsche 924S 2.5 liter inline 4 158 hp 2734 lbs retail price $26,560
2013 Scion FRS 2.0 liter opposed 4 200hp 2730 lbs retail price $24,930
Those prices are not adjusted but are in 1988 dollars to 2012 dollars.
Should allows the 6 spd FRS at the same weight and better power to embarass the "classic".
EXACTLY. The FRS beats the miata in sportiness AND usage, while costing about the same (brz a little higher, but stock nav, etc.) . The mustang will not handle near as well in tight corners. I do agree the mustang is a better value for overall performance. I would argue though, if they did come out with a turbo version packing over 250 hp and weighed in under 2800 lbs, it would win overall, IMO.

The only thing keeping the mr2 in my driveway, is the lack of easy modding. You won't get much more power from one with bolt ons. It will need internals, etc and I cannot justify tearing down a brand new engine. That said, when they come out with a lower compression boosted version, I will sell the mr2 or buy one later on used.
 

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honesty ____ toyota. Everything went down hill once killed the celica and mr2. Not even their regular cars are fun to drive.The camry sucks compared to an accord or an altima.

Toyota is never going to make another mr2 hell the only reason the frs even came into fruitation was because subie footed the bill. If another mr2 was made it would be a cheap little scion and definitely less than 28k
 

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yeah I never really like the last gen celica, and the mr2 spyder sucked the big one. compared to these last two the Fr-s is awesome still not exactly what i would want for the next mr2 but its something.
Now we all know how the toyota/subaru partnership turn out, what you guys think of the toyota/bmw partnership??
 

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kingboo said:
honesty ____ toyota. Everything went down hill once killed the celica and mr2. Not even their regular cars are fun to drive.The camry sucks compared to an accord or an altima.

Toyota is never going to make another mr2 hell the only reason the frs even came into fruitation was because subie footed the bill. If another mr2 was made it would be a cheap little scion and definitely less than 28k
You hit the nail on the head. Toyota is so absolutely bland and boring. To use Pontiacs old adage with a twist.....TOYOTA, WE BUILD UNCITEMENT
 
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