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Discussion Starter #41
Texas_Ace said:
Forget the truck, it was just an example. I spent the money on these mods for when I was boosted, which they worked very well for. I am in the transition stage between supercharger and turbo.

I have never heard of or seen 30whp gains on a 5sfe from cams. If true that is not a bad dollar/HP ratio.

Tossing a stock 2nd gen turbo/manifold onto a 5sfe should only run you a little more then cams (we are only installing the turbo/manifold, just like the cams and letting the stock ECU figure out what to do just like the cams) and will net you a lot more power.
If a stock turbo, manifold, intercooler, oil lines/fittings etc. came in under $600, sure I guess that'd almost be valid... except that cams aren't going to blow a 5sfe up, and strapping a stock turbo setup to it, and expecting the ecu to discern pressurized air from vacuum without a MAP setup or at least modifying it to respond correctly with a BEGI FMU or similar... would.

At least you can turn the dizzy on the 5sfe to accomodate some timing retard, so no ecu tinkering needed for minimal boost, but you'd still need a $200 ARRFPR like the BEGI FMUnit I mentioned, at minimum, and I'm not sure if stock injectors flow much beyond what you could do to one n/a with bolt ons/cams.

My setup would be an intelligent, proven to work, reliable, blast to drive setup... while your setup would be a hobbled together ricetard jack-stand trophy after the first week of hooning around in it. That's not what I'm going for... I have one of those already. This is to be a relatively cheap, fun, cool toy to putt around in and enjoy driving spirited or the occassional HPDE/auto-x fun in or day at mineral wells sliding. Without exceeding $8-10k, the NA is a much better choice of platform for my needs/wants.
 

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Don't mess with Texas
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Like I said, more power to you, I am a big fan of the because I can line of thinking, I just like to make sure that people have considered all the options before doing it.

The 5sfe is AFM based right? It would then be just as good at detecting boost as the 2nd gen 3sgte. Just turn the boost down and it would be fine.

And yes you should be able to find a stock turbo setup for $600 or less. The turbos/manifolds go for around $150, the rest of the stuff is cheap as well. It would not be hobbled together if done right either.

Toss in some meth injection for safety and you would be more then ok till the stock clutch started slipping.

Although in the end still better off just swapping in a 3s.

If you want to build an NA, go for it but I would talk to Eazy before you go spending too much money on it, he has spent more then just about anyone chasing NA power and still has yet to break away from stock turbo power.
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
Stock turbo power sucks... quit nutswinging for it...

http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno/edinauer.jpg

Read the mod list on that dyno sheet. That's a fresh bottom end with a rebuilt head and some extra goodies and it's throwing out a BACKBREAKING 161whp... so GTFO with all this talk of stock turbo power please. I have driven them before... if they didn't suck so much ass stock, I would probably buy one instead of an N/A, but they aren't worth it at all for me. And if I'm going to swap in a gen 3 3sgte or a 2gr... why the hell should I pay the premium to start off with a sucky ass US turbo stock car?

And as I stated, I'm not talking about spending too much money on it... I am talking about spending ~$800 worth of 5sfe mods in the cams and headers. the catback will be useable if I did 3sgte swap it later on, and the standalone ecu will be useable with anything I put behind me... so those are more chassis upgrades than engine specific upgrades. And an intake will be free from my parts bin piping and spare cone filters lol.

So ~$800 to take me from ~105whp up to around 140whp... in terms of % gains, or $$/hp... well worth it imo.

btw, I know 5sfe power sucks too, but if they both suck and I would replace either one, why bother with the stock US turbo? I'm not saying anywhere that the 5sfe is better than the 3sgte, don't want to sound like some trollolololtard, just saying for what I am planning short term and long term with the car, the NA is a far superios platform to start with.
 

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I know stock turbo power sucks, I have been preaching that for years, it just sucks less then 5sfe power.

I was also not talking about a stock turbo swap, I was talking about installing a stock turbo onto your 5sfe for the same price or less and get a lot more power out of it vs NA mods.
 

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That's exactly why turbo'd 5SFEs blow up: budget builds.

There's a serious fuel limitation - those 215-225cc (depending on year) injectors. Good luck getting enough fuel even at 80% duty cycle. Couple that with the fact that many 5SFEs out there have dirty injectors that are at around 195cc in varying cylinders, and you have a recipe for disaster.
 

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Just a thought, but since NAs need revs to make power, and the 5S doesn't like to rev that much, would de-stroking it with a 3s crank help it be more rev-happy?
 

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for turbos, its not the fuel.. that was solved years ago with the ~300cc supra injectors and 3s map sensor. the ecu just doesnt handle it, the timing and injection control is just too poor. they get plenty of gas, they just pop anyway. its really the timing. the 91's arent really precise enough to properly burn that gas (all though it runs pretty cold with how much it dumps in)

Almost all the high rev, high powered mr2s built use the 5s crank. It doesnt have anything to do with the stroke, it'll take it (its the 190 degree cams again).. the other thing is that again, all the high powered mr2s use that crank, its HUGE. toyota tossed a ~1000hp capable crank in a car making 107whp. while it might be fun to drive, i wouldnt shave a 5s crank unless it was already out and you were getting the work done for almost free.

the 5s is good for cheap cams and a header. makes a huge power gain and you get a good, quick car without much effort or cost. beyond that, its time to look at a different motor.
 

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While I don't agree with just throwing money at an engine and expecting a miracle. I do respect you sticking with what you want. If you're aiming for around 130whp or so, and that keeps you happy. Then that's not a bad investment. If you do go all out, your target should be the f22 from the later honda s2000 that was 2.2 liter. It too is DOHC and 2.2 liter, makes 240 crank and around 190-200 whp. And of course perfectly street and smog legal, and streetable. Granted it's a much more modern and performance oriented design. The best performing 5sge comes close at 180whp. So if you're aiming for the stars, I don't mind. Just make a thread and keep us updated on your build. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #50
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno/jsnodgrass.jpg

Jim Snodgrass's example I posted earlier makes almost 150whp with cams, exhaust, a larger throttle body, and some ignition mods, an EMS I am not familiar with, so am unaware what features he was running, but sequential fueling and COP ignition will be in the future for my 5sfe probably, and he also had only an intake cam, and was running a stock exhaust cam. Also unaware if he was running speed density or what... lots of details I can't find just searching as of yet.

I need something low powered to work on extensive custom fab and n/a performance mods for now anyways and a cheap throw away engine to learn it on, so another portion of the idea behind the project is potentially wasting some time and money to make gains that would scale to a larger more efficient engine as well. So if initial planning goes well it may get more goodies as spare time permits from other toys.

And n/a engines don't have to rev to the moon to make useful power... you can enhance even a smaller n/a engine to have a punch without a 9k+ redline... you just won't be able to hit dyno queen numbers, which is fine because those engines are beyond unstreetable anyways because most of them barely want to move below 5k+rpm. What you would do with a small n/a engine ideally for the real world is broaden the powerband as much as possible, and move the peak torque up just far enough to pull linear power til redline, which inately causes a gain in peak power as well, but most prominintly promotes huge gains under peak rpm. You would be amazed how different a car can drive with only 10-20whp at peak more but a filled out dyno plot everywhere behind peak power...

As a matter of fact this is where I believe a lot of confusion with power adders/bolt on mods and "dyno proven gains/performance" comes from. You egt people buying a product who don't understand the difference between a "10hp peak gain" and a "10hp gain at peak". One means you took a 130hp engine and made it a 140hp engine, while the other denotes that somewhere within the operating range of the engine, it makes 10hp more than before, and could make no gains or very small gains up top, but still have "seat of the pants" or "butt-dyno" effect, or if anything have more of an affect.

Looking at a stock 5sfe dyno plot next to a build like Jim's, it is easy to see that it isn't just a peak gain of ~40whp, but a flat, straight gain from idle to redline of 30+whp, meaning it is a very different car from idle to redline, not just "oh I put cams on and headers and now past 5k the car really takes off". It losses power nowhere, and gains everywhere by 30%-40%.

Stock dyno for comparison sake:
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno/mgawlowski.jpg

And Snodgrass's dyno posted again at beginning of this post. I don't have anything good ont his new laptop yet to overlay the two, but putting them side by side, it is obviously a massive improvement, more so than the story the peak numbers tell alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
pigfragger and Tomsmr2, I appreciate people who can respect another person's point of view, or follow simple logic and reasoning at least when presented with it. I will certainly have to make an ongoing thread when I finally get to buy an mr2 I like... in just the last week I have tried to buy no less than 3, only to have them sell while talking to the sellers before I even get a chance to see them lol. I am being patient though, the right one will pop up somewhere, even if I do have to travel cross country to grab it.

In regards to the f22/s2k comment, I would be happy with 40-50less hp, and 20lb/ft+ more, and having it all available much lower lol. They seem to dyno 196-209whp typically stock from what I have observed in a quick dozen or so sample of dyno's I could find..with 150wtq or so. I already have a big turbo boost junky moster that I enjoy and repetatively decide to find the limits of the engine in it's current state, blow up, and then rebuild and repeat... I need a cheap, safe, enjoyable mini-project daily driver to join that ongoing project and my stock cars. My 944 just won't do, I don't have the time/money for the ls1 swap I want to do on it right now, I'll have to do it in a few years when I do. No, for now I need something simple and fun, a page from the ricer's handbook, with a touch more skill, know-how, and tools than your average civic hatch owner with a short ram intake, I should do alright for myself with this I think.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Found another suitable prospect, $4500 beautiful turquoise metallic t-tops car, all original with maintenance, turbo center console added, decent stereo/speakers, fresh t-top seals, motor mounts, etc... royal purple synthetic oil, not what I'd choose but shows they spend decent money on the upkeep to me if they are willing to buy parts and have work done at the dealership and use full synthetic oil etc.

Unfortunately I live in Texas, so even though it's in the same state, she's still a solid 9hour one way drive from me... let's hope this goes better than the last 3 I have tried to go for in the past 2 weeks only to have them sell within hours of my interest lol. Wish me luck, The 944 may get kicked out of the garage sooner than expected.
 

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skip the 5sfe mods.. 800 is a BIG step of the way to a V or 3rd gen swap.. And the motivation from driving 100whp helps you save the last 2/3rds ( assuming you do the labor yourself)
 

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Yeah it's the timing that kills all 5sfte using the stock 5sfe ECU. The ones that don't blow up (like mine) end up with rod knock cause detonation kills bearings.

You just can't run 30+ degrees of timing with any kind of boost and have it be reliable. Unless of course you are using E85.... then I guess 5sfe ecu would do ok. ;)

Perhaps run 550cc injectors, 15 psi, 5sfe ecu, and E85? That might work.
 

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LordLo said:
Perhaps run 550cc injectors, 15 psi, 5sfe ecu, and E85? That might work.
I bet it would, or a meth injection kit like I use on my 4runner. It provides the extra fuel and octane needed to max out the TRD supercharger and more timing then stock NA all with the stock 9.6:1 CR.
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
or not worry about boost because I already have a project that has that cornered pretty well lol.

And I don't do meth injection, not on a low power setup anyhow... it's a tuning bandaid and can lead to disaster as one more failure point for a turbo system.

The $800 figure was if I bought brand new cams lol. It's all of $200 to have them ground. so total investment in 5sfe parts ~$300 lol for ~30whp gained...$10 per WHP is sick lol.

None of the mentioned alternatives would be as reliable as the setup I have outlined. If I wanted more power I could always spray on it, but all out power isn't the real point. Just a more potent all around package for a daily and something to tinker with as a light side project daily driver.

If I wanted something else to put on top of all of my numerous jackstands, I would take every single piece of advice/recommendation you have thrown out texas ace lol. But that isn't what I want. Then again, if I believed everything you said/belived, I'd just but a stock turbo since completely stock they can do a mid/low 13.... :bsflag:

And Jared, if I didn't do 100% of my labor myself, my cars would all be stock hahaha
 

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I was not kidding. Lets see some dynos when you get those cams in. I would love to have 160whp 5sfe in my track car for $200!
 

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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
~30whp+ ~105whp stock =/= 160whp lol. Also, peak gain is 30whp+, gain at peak is a bit over 20whp from what I have seen. Don't confuse the two.

Bear in mind the 30+whp area that gains is all above factory power peak, so you peak 20whp or so higher than stock, and carry 30whp more to factory redline, and it adds power across the entire rev range.

They dyno's and corresponding cam cards/grinds are already out there, feel free to contact delta cams and get yours done if that interests you, no need to wait for me to sew my tail coat for you to ride it to more power lol.
 

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Mulholland said:
If I wanted something else to put on top of all of my numerous jackstands, I would take every single piece of advice/recommendation you have thrown out texas ace...
I just have to say this is possibly the funniest thing I've ever read on mr2oc! :joecool:
 

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I had a stock 5sfe with an ebay header and an intake(95 model).
It was putting down 135 whp.
I must have had cams!
 
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