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Look up a GReddy style SR20DET pan. That’s a good way to do a winged lower sump. Obviously you’d just do the wings out of sheet steel for a 2GR stock lower pan.
 

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I forget Moroso makes a pan, I'd be very interested to see data on it. I'd consider it but $800 is a big bullet for an oil pan.

DefSport, that could be made of sheet aluminum if you're up for making an entire pan. Which I am considering.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Yeah, 800 for the Moroso pan is just too much, especially without data to show that it works. Also I'm not a huge fan of how they put plugs in the bottom of the pan to access three of the bolts that hold the pan on. Seems like just asking for leaks. The Greddy style where you have a tube that goes through the pan seems like a more sensible solution to me.

Other options on the market, from Track Group in the UK.

Oil pan: Track Group 2GR-FE Baffled Sump - Track Group Basically a stock pan with a baffle insert that looks pretty similar to mine, but about 3x the cost. Again no data.

They also sell a modified pickup. Uses a rubber foot which, if I have done my research correctly, comes from a Mercedes: Track Group 2GR-FE Oil Pick Up Pipe - Track Group
 

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My moroso doesn’t leak. I bought it years ago. Are they really $800 now
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Depends on where you buy it. List price on Moroso's website is 806, but looks like it's 595 on Monkey Wrench Racing still.

Not saying it will leak, but having four extra holes in the bottom of the pan to access the bolts just adds more spots that need to be sealed. With the right sealant it's probably fine.
 
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I forget Moroso makes a pan, I'd be very interested to see data on it. I'd consider it but $800 is a big bullet for an oil pan.

DefSport, that could be made of sheet aluminum if you're up for making an entire pan. Which I am considering.
It could, but the flange is the $$$ part, plus a lot of labor to replicate 80% of the OEM pan. Honestly, if I were fabbing it in my garage I'd just mod a stock pan. If I were making a new product to sell, I'd make it out of aluminum.

Depends on where you buy it. List price on Moroso's website is 806, but looks like it's 595 on Monkey Wrench Racing still.

Not saying it will leak, but having four extra holes in the bottom of the pan to access the bolts just adds more spots that need to be sealed. With the right sealant it's probably fine.
Agreed. Not a huge fan of sealing on a bunch of plugs on the bottom to save a bit of fabrication time.

They usually seal with o-rings, but I've definitely seem them leak and require lots of RTV due to welding distortion.
 

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It could, but the flange is the $$$ part, plus a lot of labor to replicate 80% of the OEM pan. Honestly, if I were fabbing it in my garage I'd just mod a stock pan. If I were making a new product to sell, I'd make it out of aluminum.
Fair point on the flange. I'd just find someone local with a CNC router that can cut one out. Or find a makerspace with a milling machine and just do it by hand matching the stock flange
 

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Water jets or even plasma tables are king for flanges. It’s still a lot of material for 1 piece flanges and some expensive machine time.
 

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Water jets or even plasma tables are king for flanges. It’s still a lot of material for 1 piece flanges and some expensive machine time.
Agree. Maybe you could bribe Toyota into pressing some aluminum pans for a group buy. Hell, if they did that I'd buy one. No such thing as insignificant weight savings
 

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Aluminum pans don't really end up being much lighter, if any, compared to a stock stamped steel pan. The flange thickness is typically ~4-6x thicker, then the general sheet/casting they're made from tend to be about 2-3x thicker on the aluminum piece. So generally weight savings just isn't there (aluminum being 1/3 the density of steel).

I know my Moroso 3S-GTE pan is about the same weight as the stock stamped steel one, or near enough that they felt about the same to the uncalibrated hand scale.

They do transfer way more heat, with every car I've seen going from a stamped steel pan to an aluminum pan seeing a measurable reduction in oil temps.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I looked into buying one of those Track Group oil pickups, but their website doesn't have any shipping options to the US. So instead I ordered the Mercedes rubber pickup foot and at some point this winter will try to modify my stock pickup to fit it. Will probably be a long time before I have any data to see if it works though :(
 

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I looked into buying one of those Track Group oil pickups, but their website doesn't have any shipping options to the US. So instead I ordered the Mercedes rubber pickup foot and at some point this winter will try to modify my stock pickup to fit it. Will probably be a long time before I have any data to see if it works though :(
Alex what is the benefit of the rubber pickup? I'm sure there is one I'm just not seeing it
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I believe the benefit is that it can sit closer to the bottom of the pan.

Looking at the pickup, it has four rubber feet on the bottom that I believe are intended to touch the bottom of the pan, leaving gaps between them for oil flow. I don't remember exactly how close the stock pickup is to the bottom, but this is almost certainly going to reduce that gap.
 

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Granted these days I'm racing the 2AR, not the 2GR but i have put an absolute ton of track miles on the 2GR (probably 8000miles or so) and the 2AR is nearly identical as far as the oil pan goes. I have a 2AR motor that had between 30k and 35k of endurance racing on it, it's all i did with it for 9.5 years. It eventually suffered a rear main failure and when i took it apart the bearings still looked new. I realize this is the 2AR not the 2GR but they are very similar at the bottom and in the 8000miles of 2GR racing i've never seen glitter in the oil filter on oil changes which is actually even better than the 2AR at the end of it's racing life. The only oiling weakness I've found in these motors is the forward thrust bearing really does not have enough surface area to be used in a manual transmission application, that's the little bit of glitter i started seeing in the oil filter at the end of it's first life. That was the only bearing that had any wear at all on it and it does not get any pressure lubrication so that isn't an oil pump issue. Even the cylinder bores were only ovaled by .0005" so the cylinder walls were also getting plenty of lubrication in all the positions.

A dry sump can be neat but to me it's an extra failure point and empirically i just can't see that it is needed at all.

With all this said, when i started racing the 2GR i did install an accusump but the system had a small leak and was leaking small droplets of oil on the header so i removed it (the leak was 100% my fault, not the accusump)

Something i did notice when i had it is the 2qt accusump had a little over 20seconds of bleed down time before it kicked on the low oil pressure light so if i were to do it again i would use the 1qt unit. I'd use an even smaller unit if it was available but i haven't seen a smaller one.
 

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Oh I see. Functionally would that be any different from extending the pickup further down into the pan?
I suppose functionally the same, but the risk there is a small dent on the oil pan can totally starve your engine of oil near instantly if it blocks the pickup. The SR20DET's stock pickup, especially the earlier redtop models is faces down almost 100% and sits close to the stock pan. A small dent there has trashed many an SR as a result, and it supposedly happens really quickly as you'd imagine of drastically restricting oil flow. Cast aluminum pans are seen as a bit of a safety issue there due to this (as well as the later pickup which has some better reinforcement on the pickup tube and it opens the pickup hole to not be blocked off as easily by a slightly dented pan).

The rubber pickup has the advantage of always getting right down to the bottom of the pan and absorbing all the manufacturing tolerance between all the pieces (the rubber just compresses more or less). And if there is for some reason a minor dent/ding on the pan, the pickup will adjust and be just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Granted these days I'm racing the 2AR, not the 2GR but i have put an absolute ton of track miles on the 2GR (probably 8000miles or so) and the 2AR is nearly identical as far as the oil pan goes. I have a 2AR motor that had between 30k and 35k of endurance racing on it, it's all i did with it for 9.5 years. It eventually suffered a rear main failure and when i took it apart the bearings still looked new. I realize this is the 2AR not the 2GR but they are very similar at the bottom and in the 8000miles of 2GR racing i've never seen glitter in the oil filter on oil changes which is actually even better than the 2AR at the end of it's racing life. The only oiling weakness I've found in these motors is the forward thrust bearing really does not have enough surface area to be used in a manual transmission application, that's the little bit of glitter i started seeing in the oil filter at the end of it's first life. That was the only bearing that had any wear at all on it and it does not get any pressure lubrication so that isn't an oil pump issue. Even the cylinder bores were only ovaled by .0005" so the cylinder walls were also getting plenty of lubrication in all the positions.

A dry sump can be neat but to me it's an extra failure point and empirically i just can't see that it is needed at all.

With all this said, when i started racing the 2GR i did install an accusump but the system had a small leak and was leaking small droplets of oil on the header so i removed it (the leak was 100% my fault, not the accusump)

Something i did notice when i had it is the 2qt accusump had a little over 20seconds of bleed down time before it kicked on the low oil pressure light so if i were to do it again i would use the 1qt unit. I'd use an even smaller unit if it was available but i haven't seen a smaller one.
On one hand I know this, and as I have said before, we are fortunate that the 2GR oiling system is so much better than prior Toyota V6's (which required an accusump if you were to even think about taking them on the track from what I have read).

On the other hand, it just bothers me that I see that pressure drop in the data. It's not an "OMG instant destruction" pressure drop, but it's a drop none the less.

Part of it is, as you said, a drysump is just "neat". Doing it for it's own sake would be just cool, and IF it could be easily done using the stock power steering pump, that makes it quite a bit cheaper and easier. But if that's not possible or practical, I'm not likely to pursue it further. I'm tempted to pick up a stock pump and do some flow rate testing, but I have a lot of other stuff higher on my project priority list.

Regarding the accusump, using a smaller one does help with the "over filled pan at idle issue" that I was worried about. Plus I had another idea on that... If you tied an electric valve into an RPM switch such that it was closed below say 2500RPM, that would keep a lot more oil in the accusump. If I recall right oil pressure is pretty non-linear with RPM, in that it has risen a LOT by the time you get to 2500, so just keeping that level of oil in the accumulator would probably keep the pan at a reasonable level. Plus when you come down from high RPM the bleed down time is going to mean that the pressure in there is even higher than it would be if you just let it accumulate at the 2500rpm pressure.
 

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I hear you and i do agree that it does drop in pressure. It's possible as we push further and further that we will start to notice issues. Maybe at 1.4G? Maybe at 1.5G? or higher even?

The other factor to consider is the oil. Once i started using Klotz i stopped killing motors at the track. It's a stupid high ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphate) oil. It's actually a really old additive that works amazingly well to protect surfaces when oil pressure drops. They don't use nearly as much of this these days because it has negative impacts on the catalytic converter's life span. I also just run a 5w20, there's no reason to get oil that has a harder time getting back down to the pan, it also takes a bit less power to pump it so it does not get as much heat from the pumping though i'm really not sure how big of a factor that is. I do know i'm going against the common thought on this stuff, it works for me is all i can say.

But this is all talk until someone actually checks the results and i REALLY wish this was a 2gr for the sake of this conversation but this is a 2ar. The rod bearing on the left is new and all the others are old main bearings that have seen at least 30k miles of endurance racing. The two in the middle that show some wear were in positions #4 and #5 so they do have the least oil pressure when the pressure starts going down. I'd say that extra wear is a clear sign there that what you're saying has some validity.
72312


Note that the circular lines are not scratches (except maybe the one on the middle of the #5 lower main) the bearings have a micro texture probably to keep more oil on the surface and the very top layer of metal is starting to wear down.

In my mind i'd rather have to throw new bearings in the motor every 2-3 years than have an extra oil hose in the engine bay because of the failure risks associated with the hose and fittings but the bearings above show that even without a dry sump or some kind of accusump you're good for more than a lifetime's worth of track time for most people. The motor outlasted four MR2 chassies and it finally had the rear main failure in the fifth MR2 i stuffed it in. They would just get to the point where so many of the spot welds were broken that the car was "floppy"

The weak point to be concerned about is this:
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The right side is the thrust face that you push against when you push the clutch, i'd say that bearing is past it's life and probably should have been replaced after 20-25k track miles. It's got a ridiculously high number of shifts near or above the stock redline.

I'm fairly certain that the thrust bearing can be replaced with the engine in chassis but it would be a major pain in the rear. Frankly i'd also like to inspect the other stuff at the same time so i'd likely just pull it.

What i do know is the oil filter did start showing glitter from that bearing and that glitter could very well be what took out the rear main also.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
The right side is the thrust face that you push against when you push the clutch, i'd say that bearing is past it's life and probably should have been replaced after 20-25k track miles. It's got a ridiculously high number of shifts near or above the stock redline.
I wonder how much of this is from shifts and how much is from startup when there is zero oil pressure? Or do you have the clutch start switch bypassed? I do primarily for this reason.
 

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That's actually a very good point. I don't have a clutch interlock on the race car because it's just one less thing to go wrong and generally when i start the car for a race i just reach in and press the start button so the clutch isn't pressed. When i do drive it on the street i'll sometimes push it out of habit but not all the time. Honestly the thrust bearing wear from startup never occurred to me but it's really obvious once you mention it.
 
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