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-   -   2GR Camry sensitive accel pedal (https://www.mr2oc.com/188-v6-mr2-forum/677598-2gr-camry-sensitive-accel-pedal.html)

Clifton November 3rd, 2018 16:42

2GR Camry sensitive accel pedal
 
Does anyone else not like the pedal sensitivity? My car is about 1000 lbs lighter than a MR2 so that might play into it but it is so hard to be gentle with it at light throttle. I know the Tundra guys complain about their sensitivity and Toyota has an updated PN (04000-0440C) for them that seems to be better. I pulled the Toyota shim fix out and replaced the small spring with a heavier one but I am waiting on a few parts to test drive again. Anyone know if the Tundra pedal will electronically work?

Here is a list of pedal part numbers.

http://media.fixed-ops.com/Toy_Campa...Supplement.pdf

merryfrankster November 3rd, 2018 17:04

Your car weighs 1700 lbs?

Clifton November 3rd, 2018 18:47

1690 lbs. It's a Lotus Europa. Stock is 1550 lbs.

merryfrankster November 3rd, 2018 18:54

Wow just by coincidence there is one of these for sale near me.

https://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/...705858465.html

merryfrankster November 3rd, 2018 20:38

Hey so maybe more topically relevant, I had a number of things going on with my car that made it feel very trigger happy on normal traffic take-off. Combination of lightweight flywheel, highly grabby clutch, and of course, the pedal itself. So two things that helped me to deal with it. A. Sensitivity training for my left foot - learning the clutch engagement point and how to work it delicately, this coming after a lifetime of driving manual transmission where all I had to do was plop the thing out and go. And B. The clutch wore in eventually - this took months - so it became more forgiving. I didn't do anything with the accelerator pedal.

Alex W November 5th, 2018 07:53

I initially found it to be pretty sensitive as well. Actually, when I first drove a 2GR swapped car (probably 5-6 years before doing the swap myself), I found it to be VERY sensitive, but that car also had a very grabby puck clutch in it if I remember right. But I found I got used to it pretty quickly and it doesn't bother me any more. That said, in a perfect world I would have it a little less sensitive. But it's really not bad enough for me to want to go to much effort to change it.

hotnickels November 5th, 2018 09:06

Anyone try one of these? Mine is pretty sensitive as well.
https://www.pedalcommander.com

Alex W November 5th, 2018 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotnickels (Post 6791766)
Anyone try one of these? Mine is pretty sensitive as well.
https://www.pedalcommander.com

Interesting. As seems all to common, they seem to be focused on making it MORE sensitive (better throttle response don-cha-know), so I wonder if it can actually go the other way. It's also a little spendy in my opinion (330 bucks).

I wonder... since the output from the pedal is just a voltage signal (I am logging it with my data logger for throttle position), one might be able to reduce the output from the pedal a little at all positions by adding resistance. I have data logs that show a small dead zone at the top of the pedal travel where the throttle is already at 100% but the pedal has another 15% or so to go, so maybe a little resistance could reduce that? Might be worth a little investigation.

merryfrankster November 5th, 2018 12:53

This is revisiting a previous discussion. As Marc has discovered and shared with this forum, the pedal position is not a direct input to the throttle position. First the ECU transforms the pedal position to a "TORQUE REQUEST." Then the torque request is transformed to a throttle position that is commanded to the throttle body. This is done with two separate tables. These tables are featured in a number of other threads (linked below). So the proper way to modify the throttle response is to tune the throttle control maps, which is do-able now that the ECU can be flashed. It may be enough to just change the break points in the pedal position table and this should have a "damping" effect.

https://frankensteinmotorworks.com/E...%20mapping.jpg

Source: https://www.mr2oc.com/6633945-post528.html

Interestingly in these tables there is no time rate of change dependency, as you would see for example in an acceleration enrichment table. Something tells me this might not be the full story.

PS> Another thing that occurs to me is that different ECU's have different calibrations tuned to the specifics of the vehicle. One example that comes to mind is the MAF calibration, which varies by intake. So who's to say that the throttle calibrations are all the same, and what effect the differences might have when you mix-and-match ECUs and throttle pedals.

Clifton November 5th, 2018 13:00

I don't have a problem shifting. My problem is creeping along at slow speeds, say under 15 and giving a little throttle, any small input seems extreme. I'll test my pedal next week and see if my changes helped at all, I might try a stiffer spring on the large OD one.

I emailed the pedal company asking them how much sensitivity can be taken out. It is pricey but might be my only option. They have an Eco mode too.

https://www.pedalcommander.com/insta...v=7516fd43adaa

hotnickels November 5th, 2018 13:53

How did you change the spring? I think I'd be happy with a stiffer spring providing more resistance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clifton (Post 6791786)
I don't have a problem shifting. My problem is creeping along at slow speeds, say under 15 and giving a little throttle, any small input seems extreme. I'll test my pedal next week and see if my changes helped at all, I might try a stiffer spring on the large OD one.

I emailed the pedal company asking them how much sensitivity can be taken out. It is pricey but might be my only option. They have an Eco mode too.

https://www.pedalcommander.com/insta...v=7516fd43adaa


merryfrankster November 5th, 2018 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clifton (Post 6791786)
I don't have a problem shifting. My problem is creeping along at slow speeds, say under 15 and giving a little throttle, any small input seems extreme.

Oh yeah this problem. I forgot about that. I had this only when creeping in 1st gear. Shift into second when creeping and all fine for me. This seems to give enough drivetrain resistance to keep the engine under control.

Clifton November 6th, 2018 05:11

Pop the silver covers off the side and press the pin out. It takes some manipulating to get it apart. The small spring is 1.735" long x .435" wide x .050" wire diameter. I used a spring 1.800" long x .485" wide x .070" wire diameter. I had to use a bench grinder on the end of the OD on the large spring. On one end of the pedal the spring seats on the ID the other end is held by the OD, it just need a little fitting. If you have the Toyota shim fix, I would remove that too. It is easy to pop back in later. This video explains the shim.




Quote:

Originally Posted by hotnickels (Post 6791790)
How did you change the spring? I think I'd be happy with a stiffer spring providing more resistance.


rmeller November 6th, 2018 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by merryfrankster (Post 6791784)
...Interestingly in these tables there is no time rate of change dependency, as you would see for example in an acceleration enrichment table...

I am not surprised by this. The throttle itself will have no history as long as the throttle motor is fast enough, which I imagine that an electromagnetic actuator can easily be. The acceleration enrichment has to do with the complex dynamics of air rushing into the plenum and fuel vaporization. Maybe it is just the response time of the MAF, which is a thermal device after all.

Alex W November 7th, 2018 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by merryfrankster (Post 6791784)
This is revisiting a previous discussion. As Marc has discovered and shared with this forum, the pedal position is not a direct input to the throttle position. First the ECU transforms the pedal position to a "TORQUE REQUEST." Then the torque request is transformed to a throttle position that is commanded to the throttle body. This is done with two separate tables. These tables are featured in a number of other threads (linked below). So the proper way to modify the throttle response is to tune the throttle control maps, which is do-able now that the ECU can be flashed. It may be enough to just change the break points in the pedal position table and this should have a "damping" effect.

https://frankensteinmotorworks.com/E...%20mapping.jpg

Source: https://www.mr2oc.com/6633945-post528.html

Interestingly in these tables there is no time rate of change dependency, as you would see for example in an acceleration enrichment table. Something tells me this might not be the full story.

PS> Another thing that occurs to me is that different ECU's have different calibrations tuned to the specifics of the vehicle. One example that comes to mind is the MAF calibration, which varies by intake. So who's to say that the throttle calibrations are all the same, and what effect the differences might have when you mix-and-match ECUs and throttle pedals.

Marc and I have talked about this a little. Part of the problem is, as you said, there are probably other tables that feed into this stuff, and it's a complicated enough subject that he has said he doesn't want to mess with it without understanding it better.

And my data logging of the subject shows that this is true. For example, I setup my race capture pro to log actual throttle blade position (using one of the TPS outputs from the throttle body), as well as pedal position (was already logging this). A pedal sweep with the engine off shows a pretty linear relationship, other than the top 15% of the pedal not doing anything, because the throttle was fully open at about 85% pedal.

But, if we look at those two charts, one would expect a sweep using the 400rpm row to never exceed about 42% throttle, since we would need a torque demand value of 6400 to jump into the 73.9% throttle position cell, and torque demand on the pedal position map never exceeds 6080. Yet when you log the pedal position vs actual throttle position, this is not the case. So clearly we don't know the whole story.

In fact, it probably would be much easier to drive if it behaved as those charts would indicate it should, but for some reason it doesn't.

Gouky November 9th, 2018 06:42

Yeah, these 2GRs have an enormous amount of torque at the bottom. As long as you undo the pedal recall so you have friction in your pedal you'll quickly get to where you can drive it. I do agree that it could use a bit of a softened low end on the pedal though but as Alex just mentioned It isn't just those tables and i don't fully understand the interactions to be able to modify it intelligently and safely.

Clifton November 21st, 2018 18:06

1 Attachment(s)
I got a chance to drive it. It is so much better. I can actually control it at part throttle. Comparison of the small spring I swapped out. This is also with pulling the shim out.

https://imgur.com/a/5TkcRcM

hotnickels November 23rd, 2018 12:34

How much of a spring rate increase is the new spring?

Clifton November 23rd, 2018 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotnickels (Post 6792674)
How much of a spring rate increase is the new spring?

According to an online spring rate calculator the original spring is 12 lbs/in, the new one is 46 lbs/in

https://www.thespringstore.com/sprin...alculator.html

ddimensia December 11th, 2018 22:42

Bummed that there's not a ECU mapping change for this. The throttle is a little touchy at times when heel/toeing the thing. Just a word of caution, it's not a bad idea to keep an extra throttle pedal handy, we had a pedal die on track, started out intermittently being dead for brief instants until it finally died completely. I have a feeling it's from side flex on the pedal causing one or both of the hall effect sensors to read incorrectly (relative to the other) or fail outright. Obviously it depends on how much you abuse the equipment and mine is on the extreme end being used as and endurance race car.

I'm hoping to setup a circuit to support auto-blip and throttle cut for a paddle shifter, maybe I'll adjust the throttle output under normal operation at the same time.


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