The carnage! (broken shift and select lever shaft) - Page 2 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 09:01
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Well, I’ll just go ahead and get it out the way...I’m an idiot. The shift shaft must be leftover from a Solara transmission that I bought a while back. I just remembered having a shift shaft laying around when I saw your post. Sorry, for the confusion. Was just trying to help. Glad to see you have found a replacement!
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 09:56
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Originally Posted by mr2_mike View Post
Back on the 3D printing. Any thoughts on also making gears and synchros to fab? Is that even possible?
Can someone enlighten me as to what is needed? CAD drawings and detailed, preceise measurements of the parts?
Would a 3D printed metal be able to stand up to the forces?
Would a 3D print be able to be that precise on measurements?

Sorry to hi-jack.
I have a decent bit of experience in additively manufactured parts.

To answer your questions briefly, no plastics would work for anything in a gearbox other than maybe a speedo drive gear that's already injection molded nylon.

For additve mfg metallic parts, there are starting to be some steels that are being developed which are still reasonably ductile after being printed, but that probably doesn't have the hardness. There are some nickel based superalloys (like Inconel 718, or Haynes 282) that would probably be hard enough for a gear, but you're talking many hundreds of dollars per pound of the machine, and the machines themselves are typically starting around a $1 million and go up from there. That said, you'd still have to post-machine the gear faces, as the surface finish is an order of magnitude worse than what you need for a gear face coming right out of the machine.

At the end of the day, it'd cost way way more than machining a gear via conventional machines, and probably not be as good in at least a few different ways.

3d printing has some interesting usage cases, but conventional subtractive machining is probably going to still be the smart thing to do for the vast majority of parts on a car, especially anything that needs to be metallic.


A 3d printed Inconel 625 turbo manifold sounds pretty sweet to me though...
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 11:22
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Doesnít look like itís available from them either. Dunno if someone can fab/reproduce the original part?
I have access to a CNC machine. Not sure on specifics. When sourcing these items becomes a dead-end, I will inquire about the capabilities of that CNC machine. Well done OP for figuring this out. Kris @ KO is a rockstar.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 13:47 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NverEnf View Post
Well, I’ll just go ahead and get it out the way...I’m an idiot. The shift shaft must be leftover from a Solara transmission that I bought a while back. I just remembered having a shift shaft laying around when I saw your post. Sorry, for the confusion. Was just trying to help. Glad to see you have found a replacement!
Ha ha! It's all good, I appreciate the eagerness to help out.

If anything it looks like some of the other part #'s are shared, aside from the shaft itself, so that could help someone out in the future...maybe?
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 16:09 Thread Starter
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I have access to a CNC machine. Not sure on specifics. When sourcing these items becomes a dead-end, I will inquire about the capabilities of that CNC machine. Well done OP for figuring this out. Kris @ KO is a rockstar.
Does the CNC still use a CAD design to build parts? I think either way it would be worthwhile to use my original part and draft an accurate part for future use. These cars aren't getting any younger!
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 16:16 Thread Starter
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I have a decent bit of experience in additively manufactured parts.
Any experience with some of these types of printing services? Seems like metal printing has matured a lot, and some of their example parts look like fairly complex mechanical components, far more complex than the shaft in question.

https://www.3dhubs.com/cnc-machining/

https://gpiprototype.com/metal-3d-printing

https://www.protolabs.com/services/3d-printing/
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old October 1st, 2019, 17:26
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Does the CNC still use a CAD design to build parts? I think either way it would be worthwhile to use my original part and draft an accurate part for future use. These cars aren't getting any younger!
Cnc uses "g code" to do the machining. It's like a bunch of basic do this for this length, then do that, ect. Not all machines use the same g code as each manufacturer of cnc will have different software. You would normally send a cnc company a set of blueprints and a programmer will then program it for their cnc machines and then run it.

You'd be better of making a good set of blueprints with all the different views needed and dimensions. Then have a small general notes section for things like tolerances and any other info need.

Those blue prints could then be used by either a cnc programmer or a manual machinist to make the parts.


My opinion at least
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old October 2nd, 2019, 06:13
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Wow! Does this happened often on the E153?
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old October 2nd, 2019, 07:37
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Originally Posted by velillen View Post
Cnc uses "g code" to do the machining. It's like a bunch of basic do this for this length, then do that, ect. Not all machines use the same g code as each manufacturer of cnc will have different software. You would normally send a cnc company a set of blueprints and a programmer will then program it for their cnc machines and then run it.

You'd be better of making a good set of blueprints with all the different views needed and dimensions. Then have a small general notes section for things like tolerances and any other info need.

Those blue prints could then be used by either a cnc programmer or a manual machinist to make the parts.

My opinion at least
Depending on the complexity of the part the programing may be done either mostly or entirely from the 3D model without a drawing being required. Complicated parts with lots of complex surfaces or curves may be nearly impossible to fully define on a drawing. In many cases a drawing is used for inspection and to call out critical features, but it's not necessarily required.

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Wow! Does this happened often on the E153?
First time I have heard of it. Other parts break occasionally, I broke a 5th gear shift fork just a couple of weeks ago, but this is a new one for me.


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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old October 2nd, 2019, 08:01
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Depending on the complexity of the part the programing may be done either mostly or entirely from the 3D model without a drawing being required. Complicated parts with lots of complex surfaces or curves may be nearly impossible to fully define on a drawing. In many cases a drawing is used for inspection and to call out critical features, but it's not necessarily required.







First time I have heard of it. Other parts break occasionally, I broke a 5th gear shift fork just a couple of weeks ago, but this is a new one for me.
O definitely! I was more just referring to this specific part. It's not something I'd consider all that complex to where 3d modeling would provide much over a good set of drawings.

Plus around me at least, finding a manual machinist is a ton easier and cheaper than. A company with a cnc. Lots of home guys who do jobs on the side while their main jobs are at shipyards or Boeing. Try to give them a cad file and they wouldn't know what to do lol
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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old October 2nd, 2019, 17:02
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Originally Posted by mr2_mike View Post
Back on the 3D printing. Any thoughts on also making gears and synchros to fab? Is that even possible?
Can someone enlighten me as to what is needed? CAD drawings and detailed, preceise measurements of the parts?
Would a 3D printed metal be able to stand up to the forces?
Would a 3D print be able to be that precise on measurements?

Sorry to hi-jack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertFox View Post
Any experience with some of these types of printing services? Seems like metal printing has matured a lot, and some of their example parts look like fairly complex mechanical components, far more complex than the shaft in question.

https://www.3dhubs.com/cnc-machining/

https://gpiprototype.com/metal-3d-printing

https://www.protolabs.com/services/3d-printing/
No experience with any of those specific vendors, but I have experience with all those processes. In general, the only process that would give you a metallic part you'd consider "durable" would be selective laser metal sintering/welding (used somewhat interchangeably). This leaves a pretty rough surface finish, so a gear would need post printing machining, negating much of the advantage of printing it in the first place.

The aluminum and titanium printing is not really ready for an end usage part now, as it yields a really brittle final product that is much less durable/tough than making a part out of wrought/billet metal. Pretty much everything is high strength steels, and various nickel/chromium-heavy superalloys.

3d printing is a big buzzword now, but it's got a LONG way to go before it really rivals traditional machining for the vast majority of "highly loaded applications."

All the plastic processes will have a magnitude less strength than you need for a gear.
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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old October 2nd, 2019, 20:25 Thread Starter
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Thanks for the education. I'm not a machinest or fabricator, I'm a techy (and a 3D artist in my 'past life') so I think the 3D printing technology is super cool and am enjoying following it as the technology matures, but makes sense that traditional methods still produce a much stronger and more durable part.


one day, though...we'll be printing cars in our garages...
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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 01:38
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I have a model of this part, actually.

I needed one a few years ago. You won't find a new one anywhere. Only from donor transmissions

The part is carburized steel, 3d printing it out of any material is not going to match the original. It's carburized mostly for wear resistance on the splines and where it rides on the roller bearing, but the loads it sees are fairly minimal (me thinks)
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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 01:40 Thread Starter
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Update with some more pics and my potential solution...

Behold the only differences between the shafts for the E153 w/LSD and the open diff. Seriously, engineers, come on... would it have been THAT difficult to reuse the same part?! (pic #1. top is the LSD, bottom is open diff)

My hope is, instead of having to machine a new groove to match the LSD part, since that would end up being really close to the existing hole (and causing anxiety of reducing structure integrity of the shaft), I'm going to attempt to build a spacer so the spring seat sits back the 12mm or so to match. (pic #2) The parts aren't in their exact places in this photo because the snap rings are removed, but you get the idea. I found a couple of spacers at Ace Hardware today that match the inside diameter and ALMOST match the outside diameter, so I'm going to attempt to throw it on a lathe to reduce the OD, then cut it to the exact length I need. We'll see how this goes!

Update Learned that the differential is not the reason for the differences, it's the year. Apparently it's 93+ vs 92 and older.
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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 02:21
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Originally Posted by DesertFox View Post
Update with some more pics and my potential solution...

Behold the only differences between the shafts for the E153 w/LSD and the open diff. Seriously, engineers, come on... would it have been THAT difficult to reuse the same part?! (pic #1. top is the LSD, bottom is open diff)

My hope is, instead of having to machine a new groove to match the LSD part, since that would end up being really close to the existing hole (and causing anxiety of reducing structure integrity of the shaft), I'm going to attempt to build a spacer so the spring seat sits back the 12mm or so to match. (pic #2) The parts aren't in their exact places in this photo because the snap rings are removed, but you get the idea. I found a couple of spacers at Ace Hardware today that match the inside diameter and ALMOST match the outside diameter, so I'm going to attempt to throw it on a lathe to reduce the OD, then cut it to the exact length I need. We'll see how this goes!
The synchros changed in 93. It's not LSD vs non LSD.
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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 11:23 Thread Starter
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The synchros changed in 93. It's not LSD vs non LSD.
Oh! This has been a learning experience for me, so that's helpful.
Most likely the replacement part I've got is from a '92 or older? Wonder where people that I've talked to got the idea that the differential caused the parts to be different?

Either way, it seems like the older parts are more readily available on the used market...
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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 12:46
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Thanks for sharing all of this DesertFox.
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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 14:45
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Either way, it seems like the older parts are more readily available on the used market...
Of the ~33k MR2's imported to the US and Canada over 5 years, about 24k were 91/92 models.


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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old October 3rd, 2019, 20:12 Thread Starter
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Of the ~33k MR2's imported to the US and Canada over 5 years, about 24k were 91/92 models.
Stop being so logical with your high level math.

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Thanks for sharing all of this DesertFox.
This has been an educational experience for me, for sure. Hopefully it helps someone else out...and I'm really hoping the solution I came up with (but haven't executed yet) will work in case others have this problem.
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old October 13th, 2019, 02:14 Thread Starter
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I finally had time to attempt my solution of building a spacer to make the new shaft work. Basically the difference is only about 9mm where the spring seat sits, so I found a brass/copper sleeve bearing at Ace Hardware and took a lathe to it. The ID was perfect, but the OD was a little large, so I needed to shave off about 5mm of thickness (photo #1, although this is after further lathing and cutting off the actual spacer I built, you get the idea..). After getting the correct thickness, I cut it down to the correct length and dropped it inside the spring seat. (photo #2). You can see that the seats now sit at the same spot in photo #3.

Contrary to #3, though, is the final solution ended up using the shorter spring seat. Originally I used the longer spring seat, however, I didn't account for the reduction in clearance after putting a spacer in, so I used the shorter seat and ended up with a spacer roughly 9mm long. Everything is reassembled and I've done a test fit in the transmission and had my wife hold the clutch pedal while I manually twisted the rod...it seems to be working, but I won't know until I have time to reassemble the rest of the shift linkages and cables. I'll update hopefully tomorrow....and hopefully with good news.

So far total investment has been $40 for the 91/92 shift and select lever assembly, $6 for the sleeve bearing, and ~$30 for replacement gaskets and boots.
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