Highest dyno'd 5sfe - Page 4 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #61 of 89 (permalink) Old February 19th, 2012, 20:25 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2by4
I had a stock 5sfe with an ebay header and an intake(95 model).
It was putting down 135 whp.
I must have had cams!
You must have been on one of those honda dyno's that estimate crank horse power based on 25% drivetrain loss and misinterpreted your crank hp for whp.


See what I did there? I can be a dumbass and a prick for no reason too
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post #62 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 06:56
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Nice work... insulting those that are trying to help you. douchebag


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post #63 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 08:43 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrstu
Nice work... insulting those that are trying to help you. douchebag
Nice work having zero reading comprehension. I don't think "I must have mad cams!" was him trying to be helpful. He was being a sarcastic ass, so I returned the favor, and your e-sarcasm meter is busted, douchebag.

I appreciate your thoughtful and enlightening post though. Fantastic addition to my thread. Now GTFO.
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post #64 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 09:33
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I wish this forum had a block posts by user feature. You sir are an ass to everyone who has tried to be helpful.
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post #65 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 09:45 Thread Starter
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I'm an ass to no one who is helpful.

"I had a stock 5sfe with an ebay header and an intake(95 model).
It was putting down 135 whp.
I must have had cams!"

You twits actually think he was being genuine and trying to be helpful? He was being sarcastic and mocking me. And it was mildly humorous so I played along and jabbed back a bit...

And then you morons jumped in to piss and moan in his defense... go sit in the corner and mind your own business. If I hurt his feelings I'm sure he'll let me know.

The fact that you need an encoded feature to refrain from viewing MY THREADS where I'm posted... doesn't exactly speak highly for your intelligence level Jared. For future reference, if a thread was started by me, and I was the last person shown to have poste din said thread before you view it, you should probably not click on the thread title. The MULHOLLAND under the thread title means I just posted in there, avert your eyes.

I wish the forum had an "ignore offtopic idiots" function, but alas, I have to open a thread thinking someone has made any relevant post only to find people spilling their emotions and updating this crap like it's facebook. It isn't, and even if it was, I wouldn't care what you think/feel beyond the topic being discussed.

I think mr2by4 and I are just fine with one anothers sarcasm and smart assed remarks back and forth, and I'll thank you kindly to mind your own business in the future.
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post #66 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 09:59
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Here's an idea - just don't be an ass (and this applies to everyone). If someone isn't being helpful or they're disrupting your search for reliable information, report the post and let the mod staff deal with it.

Posts like the one above are what get threads around here deleted - and it's pretty difficult to use the information that people give you if your thread is gone.
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post #67 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 15:31 Thread Starter
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Agreed.

Looks like I have a local prospect popping up soon well within budget, sinc eI have missed out on a half dozen or more in the past two weeks in the state, so I'm excited. 91, t-tops, just what I want.

I have been hunting for more agressive cam grinds, anyone know what else is out there other than the 101 cam card? it still is just a fairly aggressive street cam, nothing too intense. I probably wouldn't go much beyond the specs of the 101, but I am having trouble finding anyone else with any experience with more aggressive cams, which seems odd as far built as some of the 5sfe's I have found are... that they have such a mild cam... even some slightly hotter cams with more punch would still be well streetable.
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post #68 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 17:36
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I was not being an ass. We put a motor in a car and put down those numbers at ATS racing. Their whp numbers are not out of line with any other tuners out there.
Block and head were unopened and had 100k plus miles on it. We tweaked the stock fueling with a resistor and did radical things like putting fresh plugs in it.
I would love to see you get 160rwhp out of a 5sfe. If all you get is 130, you have left a lot to be desired in your quest for power! That is not out of the realm of what people have gotten without cams.
Look at the power registry. Ken had 120 rwhp with only a drop in K&N filter.
Don't take my number. Take his. You would still need to touch 150 rwhp to be able to convince me that you had gotten a real 30 whp from cams alone and not just by tuning-up your motor.
K&N was reported to have done back to back dynos with cars going from a clogged stock filter to a K& N and showing "big gains". A stock clean paper filter would have resulted in ssome of that same gain. If people can get 120-130 whp out of cars without cams, then you should expect that I will consider that a baseline for your power gains, not the 110 rwhp of the lowest motors out there.
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post #69 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 17:39
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If you look you will find that posted results for cams and a "jet ecu"(?) were 121 rhwp.
That is 2-3 rwhp from the top posted results of a motor without cams or ecu.
If you look at the graphs, the cams really helped the engine not fall off above 5k rpms, but the engine still doesn't make much power up top. The head does not seem to flow well at those levels.
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post #70 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2by4
If you look you will find that posted results for cams and a "jet ecu"(?) were 121 rhwp.
That is 2-3 rwhp from the top posted results of a motor without cams or ecu.
If you look at the graphs, the cams really helped the engine not fall off above 5k rpms, but the engine still doesn't make much power up top. The head does not seem to flow well at those levels.
Same things I had noticed in years past, which is why I thought there must be some new cams or something out there that would give these 30whp gains.
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post #71 of 89 (permalink) Old February 20th, 2012, 23:12 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Texas_Ace
Same things I had noticed in years past, which is why I thought there must be some new cams or something out there that would give these 30whp gains.
I have seen cams pull 20whp gain at peak and over 30whp peak gains.

Texas_ace you are not listening to the conversation... he just said it helped it not run out of breath above 5k rpm's, that's pretty much where the 30whp gains are, is past the factory power peak.

And mr2by4, my bad. I thought you were just heckling like other people in the thread hahaha. No I have not stumbled across the particular dyno's you speak of. All of the stock dyno's I have seen of 5sfe's have been sad ~100whp-not quite 110whp peak dyno's. And the interesting part is, most corresponded directly to an engine that then recieved mods and made the gains, which is why I base gains off of them. They have direct before/after for specific mods, on the same exact engine, on the same dynos (different days).

I wasn't just haphazardly throwing around Jimmy Joe Bob's dyno of his stock engine and then comparing it to a factory fresh 5sfe with cams dropped in and dyno'd. I try to avoid making any comparison/conclusions from random data like that as it's the least reliable available.

I am a bit curious how a 130 crank hp engine, you are telling me can/does dyno at 120-130whp? I don't see how that is possible given what the stock turbo is rated at, and what I see stock turbo dyno's run at... and the difference in acceleration between one and the other... Please lead me to the 120-130whp completely stock 5sfe's dynos, because I haven't seen that at all. I will be shocked to see that given they run 130-135 crank hp lol. I didn't think 3sge's even got down 130whp until gen3+.......

Last edited by Mulholland; February 20th, 2012 at 23:17.
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post #72 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 07:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulholland
II am a bit curious how a 130 crank hp engine, you are telling me can/does dyno at 120-130whp? I don't see how that is possible given what the stock turbo is rated at, and what I see stock turbo dyno's run at... and the difference in acceleration between one and the other... Please lead me to the 120-130whp completely stock 5sfe's dynos, because I haven't seen that at all. I will be shocked to see that given they run 130-135 crank hp lol. I didn't think 3sge's even got down 130whp until gen3+.......
Look on this forum under the MR2 records section. I thought you would have already looked there!
The turbo beats the 5sfe with a broader peak of power and a big torque hit. If you look there you will see that the low end of a stock 3sgte is 160-170 for whp and wtq. The low avg for for 5sfe is the 100-115 range for whp and 130ish for troque.
Best numbers for the 3sgte are closer to 180 hp. Best numbers for the 5sfe are in the low 120s. Part of the reason the turbo "feels fast" is the big jump in torque as the turbo kicks in. The parity of the two stock is why it is so hard to beat an NA MKii with a turbo MKII in stock category auto-x. The throttle response and lower weight of the na help it out greatly in "quickness".
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post #73 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 13:33 Thread Starter
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Well... 130 crank at just 10% drivetrain loss would throw out 117whp... for a brand new stock 130 crank horsepower 5sfe... not to be an e-dyno jockey, but at 15% you're talking 110whp...

and you're telling me that a 20 year old stock 5sfe should put down better than 100-110whp?

I have looked under records section... but I can't just take the gains one guy with a 105whp 5sfe made to hit 148rwhp, and add that gain to a 120whp stock 5sfe and say that's the maximum number attainable, since according to you, most of the power gained on that example would be regaining stock power through maintenance and therefore not count as gains since you argue that the best possible 5sfe should be used as a baseline for comparison and not an actual baseline of my engine...

which is... ridiculous... I do grasp your point of having a properly maintenanced car within tolerances otherwise you are counting part of what a new OE part replacement would have gained back plus actual gains for the part, but regardless... you can't use someone elses engine, from someone elses car, on some other dyno as a baseline for your car... th eonly remotely close to accurate way of doing that would be to average ALL available stock 5sfe dyno's, preferably just sw20 5sfe dynos, and call that average the 5sfe Mean baseline.

On top of that, 120whp ---->150whp is a 30whp gain, AT PEAK. 120-140whp is a 20 gain at peak, but looking at the dyno for that gain, could have 30+whp gains elsewhere. And I'm not talking a tiny spike or something fishy in the dyno. I am talking about the fact that the 5sfe stops breathing at 5kish stock, the cams I have seen all add around 20whp there, and then carry a full 30whp over stock from there to redline. And that is a completely different engine to drive.

That's the difference between an engine to short shift and one to ring out, or the difference in a drag limited and an rpm limited top speed 5sfe powered car...

I really wish someone would invent a more realistic data point for people to start using that is deduced from dyno plots other than just peak hp/tq figures. They are great, but like 0-60 times they don't tell you half the story. So some magazines do 60-80 passing power and such to reflect true driving conditions.

For instance, aside from first gear, in terms of performance driving, realistically the bottom half of the dyno below your powerband doesn't matter, so essentially you are looking starting at whatever rpm 2nd gear starts after shifting at redline in 1st gear on a given application, and then considering the average power/tq available from then on. And that view of an engines useable powerband is why picking up 10-30whp at the power peak seems small for the various mods, but picking up 30+whp under the curve sends your butt dyno through the roof and feels so much quicker and more responsive and revs more freely, because it is and does.

I don't really trust anyone who claims any aftermarket product is dyno proven unless they provide gains at peak and peak gains, or a dyno for me to see, with their part being the only thing changed in back to back runs on the same dyno. Sadly there is no real way to keep tabs on most of that, but I can track my own stuff my way.

Last edited by Mulholland; February 21st, 2012 at 13:46.
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post #74 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 13:52
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You are really wasting time building a 5sfe na. You will realized that when all the soccer moms in their new Sienna (187 hp 4 cylinder or 266 hp 6 cylinder) can keep up with you or pass you. Maybe in the early 2000, 160-180 hp was a lot, but here in 2012 many cars are 200 hp or sub 200 hp.

I'd suggest you build a 5sge, if not a 5sfte or 5sgte. And it's not that the 5sfe head can't flow, it's that the cams suck and you don't have much available options as far as off the counter parts. Plus you can't play with cam degrees either due to the scissor gears. Thus, it's cheaper in the long haul to convert to a 3sge or 3sgte head.

So in short, don't waste your time. There are people who have put thousands into the 5sfe na and the most I've seen is 180whp. With so little gain, you are better off getting a turbo. I've only spent $1500 on my setup and I am likely making over 300 whp at 26 psi on a stock 5sfe head.
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post #75 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 15:02 Thread Starter
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since when are soccer mom's in sienna's at an auto-x or track event? What the hell do I care what is on the street? The only way anyone would be keeping up or passing me on the street is if they were driving more quickly than me. Your statement is a foolish one.

Your average driver spends more than 10 seconds accelerating from 0-the posted speed limit of 45mph or so... and yet how many modern production cars take longer than 8 seconds to hit 60 from a standstill? The prius?

It has nothing to do with total power, or true speed. It just has to do with enjoying the car more as a daily driver, and enjoying tinkering with it and making more of it than it was stock. This conversation was started as a byproduct of that mindset.

I am getting an n/a mr2 as a daily driver. I do not want a turbo, I don't want a 3sgte, I don't want to build a 5sfte, or a 5sgte. A 5sge would be possible but a v6 would probably be more likely at that point. For the time being I will be doing more or less a simple bolt on affair, counting cams. No extensive head work, no bottom end work.

I'm wasting time on anything performance related by your definition, as I already have an e30 that sucks in 23-28psi and launches fireballs out the exhaust and makes angry angry sounds as it rips by. But this is going to be a practical, dead-nuts reliable build. And you may have $1500 total cost not valuing your own labor at any amount, and may make 300whp at 26psi, but that doesn't tell me how many hundreds of hours your car has spent on jackstands, or how reliable it is, or how many miles it gets driven, or how many times it gets towed.

Bottom line is I don't care what you think about me wasting my time. It's a waste of time to modify any car that isn't being raced within a specific classification and rule set by a sanctioned racing body, because you can still only do the speed limits on the street, where any other car can do the exact same speeds as you, so everyone is equal. A Smartfortwo could be cruising along side a Bugatti Veyron on the highway, doing the speed limit... guess which one is faster? Neither, they are going the same damn speed.

....nevermind that a proposed 180whp 5sfe power mr2 vs aa sienna 187hp 4cyl or 266 6cyl still, wouldn't even be close... 180whp = 200crank at least, and it's in the mr2 chassis... which is what sportiness is really all about, the chassis.

If I gave a rats ass about having a dyno queen beast of a car (well, if I gave a rats ass about having another one) I would absolutely get a turbo and mod the everlving out of it.

But I don't. I would be fine with a stock 5sfe powered mr2. But I'm a mechanic and I love cars and love tinkering with them. I don't need more power than the stock 5sfe has for what I want to do. Hell, if I didn't mod it any It'd be a more competitive race car too since as I mentioned, any sanctioned racing event has rules and classifications, and stock cars are very competitively classed most places, meanwhile certain mods bump you into insane limitless cost classes against crazy stuff lol.

After spending the better part of a year daily driving my boosted e30... I don't care about power on a street car hardly at all, more about driving characteristics and the engines power profile. A car/engine can be incredibly exciting, rewarding, and fun, without having any obscene power level or massive levels of grip.

It's like breasts... there are people who like them huge, and people who reason that anything more than a handful is a waste. I suppose I am just the latter, while you guys care more about what you can see/show off than what you can really use or need available.
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post #76 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 16:52
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If you care about my suggestion, make sure you have good compression. Put in fresh properly gapped plugs, get decent(Toyota OEM) wires, new cap and rotor, put on an Ebay header and an intake and that will get you most of what you can find. We used a potentiometer to tweak fuel and that is how we got our "astounding" number. I am pretty sure that Ken did much the same tune-up stuff, but I think had to keep the stock cat and ECU to get his 120 rwhp(due to SCCA regulations). You are understimating these motors stock, and I fear, overestimating the gains you will see from cams. I am sincerely curious to see you rnumbers with cams. I am putting a 93 3sge in an 88 right now and if you can really get that kind of power from a 5sfe with just cams, I would be in, since parts are WAY easier to find and I can lay my hands on 5sfe's for cheap/free.
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post #77 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 17:13 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mr2by4
If you care about my suggestion, make sure you have good compression. Put in fresh properly gapped plugs, get decent(Toyota OEM) wires, new cap and rotor, put on an Ebay header and an intake and that will get you most of what you can find. We used a potentiometer to tweak fuel and that is how we got our "astounding" number. I am pretty sure that Ken did much the same tune-up stuff, but I think had to keep the stock cat and ECU to get his 120 rwhp(due to SCCA regulations). You are understimating these motors stock, and I fear, overestimating the gains you will see from cams. I am sincerely curious to see you rnumbers with cams. I am putting a 93 3sge in an 88 right now and if you can really get that kind of power from a 5sfe with just cams, I would be in, since parts are WAY easier to find and I can lay my hands on 5sfe's for cheap/free.
Ido care about your suggestions, and am thankful of your staying on topic. I will be doing all of the aforementioned as initial maintenance/inspection upon purchasing the vehicle.

As for the potentiometer, doesn't the 5sfe run an AFM? Can you not simply remove the cover on the top of it and adjust the AFM itself (it has a toothed wheel held down by springs with a sweeping contact under the wheel that brushes a potentiometer)? That is how I have dialed in AFR and accomodated larger injectors on AFM equiped cars in the past. You have to be able to monitor AFR, but that's a simple matter of borrowing my AEM wideband gauge/controller off the e30 for an hour of "tuning" on the stock fuel management. That and a timing light and turning the dizzy should probably yield most of the results of a performance ecu for the time being, no real cost to me and minimal time to accomplish.
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post #78 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 17:32 Thread Starter
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http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2reco...no/mtaylor.jpg

That's the very lowest dyno I can find for a cammed 5sfe. Regardles, compare the torque curve of that engine to a stock 5sfe, I consider this one to be the best stock dyno representation:
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2reco...jwarren110.jpg

And you can obviously see how much better the engine becomes up top... 1k rpm's longer power band = 1krpm's longer you stay in a gear with a much better ratio for acceleration. That alone from a performance stand point (and the fact that it loses power nowhere compared to stock cams) is enough to justify $200-300 on reground cams and shims.

http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2reco...o/mbrandon.jpg

That's a 3sge with SAFC, and an intake... I've driven a 3sge 3rd gen and a 3sge beams. I didn't care for them much. The beams had decent power and drove well enough, the 3rd gen was less good obviously... both had to be revved out hard to enjoy at all though... the 5sfe on the otherhand feels great down low and simply lacks some breathing up top. That's what I like about it.
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post #79 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 20:47
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You are hitting the nail on the head. I am planning to just swap my head over to a 5s block if I miss the grunt and have the guts of the 2.2 and the better flow of the ge head. If I shave the head a bit or run a thinner hg, I should be able to bump compression a bit to liven things up. I would like a beams, since it would be like a giant 20v, but the cost of the 3sge was too attractive, so I am giving it a try.
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post #80 of 89 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2012, 20:57
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BTW that 3sge looks like it needs to be tuned. It is all over the place.
That 5sfe looks like it is representative of people who tak etheir cars to a dyno without haveing done anything useful (nology wires?). Ken's is more represnetative of a healthy 5sfe without anyone "improving" it.
This is a laundry list 5sfe
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2reco...jsnodgrass.jpg
there is not much else you can do to a 5sfe.
The other two (there are only three) do worse with the more or less mods. I think that you would be optimistic to see better than 150whp, unless you have a secret plan. If you are happy with that dyno, then you should go ahead down that path, but I am not going to pay to have an fe head ported and milled and then put cams into it. I would have the work doen to my GE head and slap it on a 5s block.
For comparison, I had a stock 3sgte with open intake and exhaust that pulled 200 rwhp and 193 wheel torque without a boost controller.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2reco...carlson200.jpg
I know you don't want boost, but I am just saying for comparison...
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