Mk1 Front Hubs. Need Your Help! - Page 4 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #61 of 166 (permalink) Old February 15th, 2012, 11:44
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Guys

Been watching this thread for some time now.
As I also Race a few Gen1 cars. One with full slicks and the other on Studded Ice tires.
Both cars will generate well over 1 g lateral force in the corners.

I have also done Chassis Durability Testing at fords SVT group.
Only mentioning this as it appears a few of you are slightly off target.
When describing the cause of the hub failure.

And if we had a FEA guy around, He would also back this up.
The holes have little or nothing to do with this kind of failure.
If they did cause a weakness the crack would intersect the hole.
It does not.

This kind of hub failure is nothing new. In my 40 years in auto racing.
I have had the same experience. Managing wheel hub failures with more than a few cars.
New VW Rabbits and Golf?s actually had to shot peen (stress relive). New hubs to make them last more than 2 weekends of racing in show room stock SCCA. And back then we had to use real street tires.

It is all about the bending moment finding the weakest link in the chain.
And the number bending cycles before breaking.

At Ford the physical confirmation of enough durability (before the car was certified to sell).

Were 8 Million rotations in a circle. With the steering wheel at full lock. As fast as you can in first gear. This test is a method to confirm integrity of the entire system. Wheel, hub and up-right.

What it did not account for was long term age and corrosion.
That is our real battle now.

At this time I do not have the perfect answer (but I have a few ideas)
But low mileage parts from a gentle climate are worth good money.

Last edited by aszilagyi; February 16th, 2012 at 11:09.
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post #62 of 166 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2013, 21:48
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Bringing back from the dead, anyone ever find a source for hubs?
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post #63 of 166 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2013, 13:51
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I believe I have afew fronts wheel carriers left.

Since I started to add greasable zerk fittings to the front inspection cap to grease the front bearing my hub failures have virtually stopped.(2 driver car)

Pulling the axles to grease rear bearings is SOoo much easier with the C-52 tranny instead of those E-51's.
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post #64 of 166 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2013, 05:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2trim
I believe I have afew fronts wheel carriers left.

Since I started to add greasable zerk fittings to the front inspection cap to grease the front bearing my hub failures have virtually stopped.(2 driver car)

Pulling the axles to grease rear bearings is SOoo much easier with the C-52 tranny instead of those E-51's.
Trims

What are you talking about?

What are you greasing with your Zerk fitting?

And how does your rear axle shaft shaft design effect front hub failure?
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post #65 of 166 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2013, 07:30
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Correct me if I am wrong.

Any HUB failures on the race track.
Involve a bearing failure first?
(I have not seen any nor have I heard of any on- line? )

And even if there were wheel bearing problems encountered.
With racing usage. How would you lube a MR 2 (Sealed ) wheel bearing?

Sorry I just hate MIS-information. Spewing out on-line.
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post #66 of 166 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2013, 11:06
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Um, my left front hub failures (2 in total and 1 with a brand new bearing) and they were NOT related to the wheel bearing or failure of the bearing. Lateral load and blocked suspension were the cause to my hub failures.

I have the same question aszilagvi - How do you grease a sealed wheel bearing using a Zerk Fitting??
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post #67 of 166 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2013, 15:25
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All I can figure is:
A ball joint could be lubed with a Zerk.

But again - although near the hub. But not the same thing!

Actual I like racing against people who see 1+1 as 3.
When tring to manage there race cars problems.
It easy to pass them . As they seldom make the grid. Or take the green.
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post #68 of 166 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2013, 18:29
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fatigue where the hub flange intersects the "spindle" portion is the primary failure. it's all due to increased loads from sticky race rubber.

trim has a zerk in the dust cap on the front spindles, which theoretically will allow some clean grease to work its way into the bearings even though they are cartridge type.

whenever I install a new bearing, I take it apart and clean out the grease they come with and regrease with something better able to handle the heat from racing, usually redline CV-2 but Amsoil Dominator grease is pretty good too.

either way, we'll need new hubs eventually or all the MR2s out there will have to grow the balls to do wheelstands all the way around the track...
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post #69 of 166 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2013, 08:45
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Think about it fellas.

Why would Toyota add grease at the factory to the front bearings? For profit?
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post #70 of 166 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2013, 09:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2trim
Think about it fellas.

Why would Toyota add grease at the factory to the front bearings? For profit?
http://carpron.com/multisite/v/Uploa...avId=x5de927b4

I don't see how this failure has anything to do with the bearings. (Peter's photo from earlier in the thread...consistent with all failures I have had/seen)
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post #71 of 166 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2013, 11:52
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None of the 3 MKI hub failures I experienced with the car Steve now owns included any bearing damage.

The MKII hub failure I experienced this season

https://picasaweb.google.com/1008325...25492187106082

https://picasaweb.google.com/1008325...25640229108450

did not include any bearing failure.

As chipperpunk stated, it is the fatigue failure being accelerated by the sticky racing slicks.

The shop I bought my current trailer from told me they used to track a Ferrari 308 which had Fiat spindles/hubs on them. If they went as far as DOT racing slicks for the tires, the hubs would break. If they stayed with street tires, the hubs would not break.

That being said, even the Mod Squad LeMon/Chump cars are breaking MKII hubs with street tires.
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post #72 of 166 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2013, 11:53
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10-4 not a bearing problem.

There in no blueing or metal transfur.
In the bearing area.
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post #73 of 166 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2013, 12:11
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Actually adding too much grease can actually cause a bearing to run hotter.

I know it's hard too imagine. But is true.
Took an industrial bearing class.
And the instructor had us imagine running at the beach. In ankle deep water.
You can easily do it and have enough splashing to stay cool!

Now run the same speed and distance. In waist deep water.

Can not be done. Too much effort / energy required.
And not enough splashing to cool off!

All of this is off topic. Having nothing to do with cycled out broken hubs!
Even if you could force some grease into the bearing.
It could ruin the seals and may run hotter. Until expatiation(from heat) pushes the grease on to your rotor.

So I think I will pass - thanks
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post #74 of 166 (permalink) Old January 15th, 2014, 23:20
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It doesn't look like this thread has gotten much attention lately but I stumbled across it while researching hub and bearing failures.
I am actually doing some R&D on rear hubs right now and if there is still the interest I can put some time into finding a better solution for the fronts.
One thing I noticed about the rears as I was drawing one up in CAD today is that the bolts sit flush with the back of the hub. I notice the same thing in these pics of the front hub. It would be easily possible to make the hub thicker so it sat flush with the bolt and counter bore for the bolt head so it sits flush with the back face of the hub. I suspect this 4ish mm would add a significant amount of strength.


What got me started down this path was remembering one of Bill's old threads went of on going through rear wheel bearings too fast. I believe that's why at one point he converted to SW20 spindles. I started looking to see how many others had experienced this but so far haven't found many others.
Whatever the case with the bearings it would make sense that the added stress combined with added heat is likely the cause. My first thought was brazing aluminum cooling fins onto the hubs or machining cooling fins into hubs. Then I started looking to simplify the solution. This got me wondering about the thermal conductivity of Iron Oxide. Air has a horrible thermal conductivity and the interface of the metal to the air is very important to try to get the heat out of the material. I did a little research and found out that Iron oxide has about one third to one quarter the thermal conductivity of carbon steel. So basically anything that has any rust has created a thin heavily insulated layer as the interface between the steel and the air.

I Use Nic industries ceramic coatings and they have two heat transfer coatings that claim to have better thermal conductivity than aluminum. So I was wondering if it would help enough to be worth blasting down to steel and coating the hub and spindle with a heat dissipation coating that would also prevent rust.


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post #75 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 04:47
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How are you attaching aluminum to steel or iron?
Better call myth busters on a welding process.
There are some that claim it can be done. But none in main stream fabrication Biz.

We are again getting off topic.
HUB Failures are not heat related. It is an over cycling problem.
Nor is it a bearing problem!
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post #76 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 06:47
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I was re-reading this page of the thread and noticed aszilagyi's comment

"The holes have little or nothing to do with this kind of failure.
If they did cause a weakness the crack would intersect the hole.
It does not"

If you do find an FEA guy to run it, they do crack radially at those "mystery" holes in the MKI hub axles. Until I experienced the same thing on a MKII solid hub axle, I would have said it was one of the biggest contributing factors. At least the MKI hub axles had a stress relief radius cut into the transition. MKIIs don't have that.

If you read though the entire thread you will see a "heavy duty" hub axle that one member made up to alleviate this issue. That may be fine for some classes, but SCCA Improved Touring rules say we must use factory hubs from the model we run. The MKI guys may get some relief because their is no longer any source for the OEM units, but my guess is they would have to be dimensionally equivalent to the factory piece.

Since I don't know what process Toyota (or their subcontractor) put the steel through before final machining, I would be leary of thinking a beefier hub axle cut from untreated steel would actually be stronger. Ideally you'd forged a rough shape with stronger steel and use heat treatments after machining. Not very reasonable cost wise, I know.

and there are ways to "weld" aluminum and steel. In naval shipbuilding we use a "bimetalic joint" to attach aluminum superstructures to steel hulls. Just a long strip of each that are merged with an explosion.

Last edited by PDoane; January 16th, 2014 at 07:16.
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post #77 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 08:06
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the lack of availability for parts has not yet created an allowance in IT for something not effectively identical to OEM, and there's a lot of cars out there with NLA parts. EF Hondas (including the 2nd gen CRX) have no source of front hubs either, and I promise you they are harder on them then we are. no allowances. it's seen as a sort of natural selection in IT, and personally I'm not a fan of watching cars go out to pasture but I agree that it's a can of worms best left closed.

at least we can still get rear hubs, and the weight reduction hasn't hurt efforts to preserve fronts. join me in running 180TW street tires and the breakage rate will go down even further (and your overall budget will get a bump, too). it's not like the MkI guys can REALLY run for the lead, anyhow. might as well go have that race within a race on cheaper rubber.
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post #78 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 10:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aszilagyi View Post
Yoshimitspeed
How are you attaching aluminum to steel or iron?
Better call myth busters on a welding process.
There are some that claim it can be done. But none in main stream fabrication Biz.
I said brazed not welded. Welding involves melting the parent metals and fusing them together.
Brazing involves using a metal that melts at a lower temperature to bond two metals together. It can be used on similar metals, dissimilar metals or even non metals that can withstand the temp.
Brazing has many benefits. Welding creates a molten pool of metal. When this pool cools it shrinks and distorts the metal. There are things you can do to reduce the effects but nothing you can do to eliminate them. For precision work the only solution is machining after welding.
Brazing heats the object up evenly and keeps it below it's melting temp. It's even possible to keep some metals under a temp that will change their strength or hardness. Due to the much lower temps any distortion will be much much less and likely within acceptable limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aszilagyi View Post
We are again getting off topic.
HUB Failures are not heat related. It is an over cycling problem.
Nor is it a bearing problem!
Like I said I have stumbled across a number of threads talking about hub bearing failure in racing. I can't find any of them right now but it is what got me walking down this road. Interesting that different threads talk about different issues. In some threads I seem to remember a number of people having bearing failures but I hadn't heard of the hub failing till I got to this thread.
Still though, heat does effect the properties of steel. I doubt the hubs get hot enough to have a big impact on strength but keeping things as cool as possible is still key.
The same could go or rotors and calipers as well. A coating of rust on those components will insulate them and transfer heat to the air less effectively. I'm not sure how much effect it would have though.


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post #79 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 11:05
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Originally Posted by PDoane View Post

If you read though the entire thread you will see a "heavy duty" hub axle that one member made up to alleviate this issue. That may be fine for some classes, but SCCA Improved Touring rules say we must use factory hubs from the model we run. The MKI guys may get some relief because their is no longer any source for the OEM units, but my guess is they would have to be dimensionally equivalent to the factory piece.
A couple years ago when those posts were made it seemed like the general concensus was that it would be better to run safer hubs under the radar than risk this failure.
It would be interesting to know if there was a way around it or if like you say a replacement equivalent could be made and if so what the restrictions were. Even an extra .5mm of material in the right place with bigger fillets and better machining could actually make a significant difference if done right. Even the same dimensions out of the right material could be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDoane View Post


Since I don't know what process Toyota (or their subcontractor) put the steel through before final machining, I would be leary of thinking a beefier hub axle cut from untreated steel would actually be stronger. Ideally you'd forged a rough shape with stronger steel and use heat treatments after machining. Not very reasonable cost wise, I know.
I do know enough about engineering, metalurgy and fabrication to know that I don't know enough of the above to take this on without help. I would find a company who specialized in this stuff to help me. Right now I am working with the driveshaft shop on finding a solution for a stronger axle and hub solution for his MK1.5 which is what started me thinking about all this stuff in the first place.
It may be possible that the right alloy may not need to be forged. Or it may be possible to get forged universal blanks that could be machined to size. There is often quite a lot that could be done. The question is if there is enough serious interest to make it worth pursuing.
Around 2012 it looked like there was enough interest that I would consider at least pursuing it a little further but I'm not sure if there is still the same amount of activity or interest.


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post #80 of 166 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2014, 13:27
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I actually like racing against the misguided?
They spend there valuable time working on things that are not broken.
With out any real data to direct the process.

They are easy to pass on trac. If they make it to the track?

Seldom finish an event.

And hey, we all need field fillers to make our wins appear more impressive !

One day I was asked " how do you win so often? ".
My answer " over time you learn what not to do".


I know I can be an _____. But brazing aluminum to steel?

I call BS.

You would have a better time with a hot glue gun.

If you think that's how it's done?
Your a lap down. Before your leave the house!
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