STS2 MK1 suspension setup w/host XHead Part:2.0 - Page 6 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #101 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 14:51 Thread Starter
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Koni's for MK1's are not rebuildable as they are sealed. Or so I have been told.
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post #102 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Koni's for MK1's are not rebuildable as they are sealed. Or so I have been told.
it does look like the Koni Yellows for the MR2 are sealed units, most of them arent. ive had Koni Yellows apart a bunch of times, thats a shame then! i dont think it would prove worthwhile to service yellows anyway, in the UK a brand new set costs about the same as labour to service them. 8610/11's will probably be serviceable though.
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post #103 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 16:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Could you post the dyno of yours?



these are mk2's with standard valving. not adjusted across a particularly wide range though, i was looking at something more specific. il have some better graphs in a few weeks time when ive got my dyno, il be putting mine in there to do some more testing
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post #104 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 20:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Koni's for MK1's are not rebuildable as they are sealed. Or so I have been told.
http://www.pbase.com/mtb_zack/image/94409253

http://www.pbase.com/mtb_zack/image/94096802

to my eyes, the 8641-1072 and 8610 inserts look like they are 'closed up' identically.
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post #105 of 389 (permalink) Old March 14th, 2009, 05:54
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hard to tell from the pictures if they are sealed or not. that top cap will knock off, so it depends on whether there is a removable seal head underneath. if they are sealed then id expect to see some type of machine weld around the top as you see on the new sealed OEM struts, and i dont see one. so they may be serviceable afterall
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post #106 of 389 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2009, 03:13
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My mr2 has wound up lower than XHead suggested, partly because of how I did the welding for the gc's, and partly because of me

Anyway, the thing is doing pretty good- this weekend's autox went well- even though I still have to finish alignment, and perhaps get a little more negative camber. What I wanted to ask though, was about the roll center. I've noticed in a tight, smooth fast turn on the street (can't feel it in autox, not the same) it feels like the car has 90% of the weight on the outside wheels, almost as if it was close to carrying both inside wheels. Is this a byproduct of the artificially low roll center (probably below the ground... RCA's, I need you) or some other problem I'm not thinking of? Or, is this how it's supposed to feel?

P.S. It looks like I'm stuck in SM cause of my gze. I'm sorta alright with this, cause it does things like set my minimum weight = 2025lbs, which means I don't have to go crazy w/ the stripping. Anyway, anyone have inputs as to things I should consider doing that can't be done in sts2 or csp?

Last edited by sliverstorm; March 24th, 2009 at 03:18.
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post #107 of 389 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2009, 06:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sliverstorm
P.S. It looks like I'm stuck in SM cause of my gze. I'm sorta alright with this, cause it does things like set my minimum weight = 2025lbs, which means I don't have to go crazy w/ the stripping. Anyway, anyone have inputs as to things I should consider doing that can't be done in sts2 or csp?
go as crazy with the stripping as you can. then you can put the ballast as low down in the chassis as possible and lower the CofG.
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post #108 of 389 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2009, 08:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sliverstorm
What I wanted to ask though, was about the roll center. I've noticed in a tight, smooth fast turn on the street (can't feel it in autox, not the same) it feels like the car has 90% of the weight on the outside wheels, almost as if it was close to carrying both inside wheels. Is this a byproduct of the artificially low roll center (probably below the ground... RCA's, I need you) or some other problem I'm not thinking of? Or, is this how it's supposed to feel?

The feeling of weight transfer is likely the low roll center. If you are as low or lower than my car, and have not corrected the roll center with RCAs or some other method, then the roll centers are well below ground. The resulting moment arm is very long and therefore the center of gravity has a lot of leverage, through the roll center, to roll the car over. That's likely the feeling you are getting.

Being that low will have your camber curves in the positive range so its not likely you can get enough static camber to make the car work without correcting the RC.

-Steve
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post #109 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 01:40
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured

How much camber do I loose when the strut compresses? I currently have (in my hackish, 30 minute camber job) -3 degrees on the front left, -2.5 on the front right. While it's obviously a problem, I was hoping that until I can fix the RC, camber loss would be minimal due to tiny suspension travel on a flat autox course.
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post #110 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 08:45
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Well, the camber curve issue is compounded by the excessive body roll. The low roll center results in more body roll due to the longer moment arm. That compresses the outside suspension further than it would normally. Since you are already in the positive side of the camber curve, the more the suspension compresses, the worse it gets.

So add the camber loss due to body roll (on a strut chassis) to the deepening positive camber gain and you can go VERY positive, very quickly. Add that to the bump steer you get and the car will feel like it just gives up at the limit. Or worse, the car is not predictable and unforgiving.

The trick to making these chassis work at their full potential, is to keep it as flat as possible. That keeps the geometry at home so the camber and bump steer issues are negated.

-Steve

Last edited by XHead; March 25th, 2009 at 08:47.
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post #111 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 12:53
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Just returned from the track.

Results:

2 seconds better time while the track being ~1 second slower

This means 3 seconds better time with only change being the suspension...

And I feel it has much more...

I am very happy the car was just awesome!!!

Thanks xHead
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post #112 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 13:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
The feeling of weight transfer is likely the low roll center. If you are as low or lower than my car, and have not corrected the roll center with RCAs or some other method, then the roll centers are well below ground. The resulting moment arm is very long and therefore the center of gravity has a lot of leverage, through the roll center, to roll the car over. That's likely the feeling you are getting.

Being that low will have your camber curves in the positive range so its not likely you can get enough static camber to make the car work without correcting the RC.

-Steve
I figured this was my problem at last Sundays race. Would I be able to band aid my car by up the spring rates to counter my problem until I fix my RC problem at the end of my season or am I going to compound the problem?

Last edited by verno-dub; March 25th, 2009 at 13:36.
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post #113 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 14:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Just returned from the track.

Results:

This means 3 seconds better time with only change being the suspension...

And I feel it has much more...

I am very happy the car was just awesome!!!

Thanks xHead


You are very welcome. I love getting these reports.

I get some really funny looks when I tell people the same setup will work equally as well at an autocross or a full road course. The only changes I make are a slight adjustment to the compression dampening (more for road courses, less for autocross) and a slightly more conservative rear toe setting (less rotation at turn-in).

That's it.

-Steve
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post #114 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verno-dub
I figured this was my problem at last Sundays race. Would I be able to band aid my car by up the spring rates to counter my problem until I fix my RC problem at the end of my season or am I going to compound the problem?

Anything that keeps the car flatter will help, but, you will have to go A LOT stiffer and that is likely to be counter productive. There really is no substitute for a geometry problem.

Fixing the roll center issue isn't hard. A set of RCA's is quick and easy and is better than nothing.

Any reason you don't want to do that now?

-Steve
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post #115 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 14:54
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I am very happy it worked out. Many people (almost everyone) was saying to me:
11kg/mm in front? It won't turn at all...you will be going straight...
Today there were a few asking about the bar-less setup...

The most important is that I believe that I have one more second because I was VERY carefull in braking (had a issue in my brakes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
The only changes I make are a slight adjustment to the compression dampening (more for road courses, less for autocross)
You mean going stiffer in full tracks? Ohlins has 30 positions (0=full stiff, 30=full soft). Initially I run 15f/15r and had under-steer. I then adjusted to 20f/15r and the car was fine.

Do you think I should go stiffer next time? I was in the soft side of the suspension today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
and a slightly more conservative rear toe setting (less rotation at turn-in).
Could you explain this a bit more? I currently run 2.4mm toe in rear.
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post #116 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 14:56 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verno-dub
I figured this was my problem at last Sundays race. Would I be able to band aid my car by up the spring rates to counter my problem until I fix my RC problem at the end of my season or am I going to compound the problem?
Get some longer springs if your perches are too long.
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post #117 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 15:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
I am very happy it worked out. Many people (almost everyone) was saying to me:
11kg/mm in front? It won't turn at all...you will be going straight...
Today there were a few asking about the bar-less setup...
.
Welcome to my world.


The most important is that I believe that I have one more second because I was VERY carefull in braking (had a issue in my brakes).


Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
You mean going stiffer in full tracks? Ohlins has 30 positions (0=full stiff, 30=full soft). Initially I run 15f/15r and had under-steer. I then adjusted to 20f/15r and the car was fine.
.
Not really. If the car is fine, stay on that track. I run very low compression dampening at autocrosses to help the car transition better. Slightly more compression on road courses to help control body motion at speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Could you explain this a bit more? I currently run 2.4mm toe in rear.
That explains the understeer you had to dial out.

Explaining my above statement will take a LOT of time. And I haven't published this on this forum previously. Its enough of a controversey that I don't use swaybars and do use VERY stiff springs. Its taken this long for people to come to grips with that. Now I have to tell you that I run toe-out in the rear. A LOT of toe-out. For road courses, I run slightly less rear toe-out.

-Steve
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post #118 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 15:41 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
Now I have to tell you that I run toe-out in the rear. A LOT of toe-out. For road courses, I run slightly less rear toe-out.

-Steve
Seriously when you told me that I had a :wtf: moment....then when I did it, I got it.
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post #119 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 16:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
Anything that keeps the car flatter will help, but, you will have to go A LOT stiffer and that is likely to be counter productive. There really is no substitute for a geometry problem.

Fixing the roll center issue isn't hard. A set of RCA's is quick and easy and is better than nothing.

Any reason you don't want to do that now?

-Steve
No reason other than i only have one more race for this season and wanted a "band aid" as I have springs to replace right now. On the subject of springs, i kinda weary on upping the rates substantially due to the fear of my car become too skiddish (is that even a word?) with the higher rates.

Ive always thought that I had to measure for a proper RCA height, im guessing i could call T3 and just grab a set of O.T.S RCA's for the time being. Do you have interference problems with RCA's with your 13" panasports? The only other real problem would be the tie rod/bump steer issue.
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post #120 of 389 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2009, 16:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Get some longer springs if your perches are too long.
Huh? I was talking about upping the spring rates, not the length.
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