STS2 MK1 suspension setup w/host XHead Part:2.0 - Page 5 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #81 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 06:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Just received my new suspension.

Techno Pro Spirit Ohlins with 11kg (615lb/in) front and 7kg (391lb/in) rear.
I will also remove both antiroll bars.

It is for my MK3 which is mostly for the track.

I will try the new setup and hope to see a much better car.
did you get a dyno graph with them?
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post #82 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 07:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sliverstorm
Oh, and thank you XHead. Thank you very much. I have a little piece of heaven now. My '2 was always responsive in the steering dept. but just never stuck to the ground, no matter how I drove it. Loved to push in turns. Imagine how it feels, going from pushing like there's no tomorrow, to sticking like glue!
You have described my own experience all those years ago when I went from a car with big swaybars to my first experiment with no swaybars. For me it was a revelation.

I am glad that you have found such success. That's why I wrote the piece. This is my reward.

-Steve
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post #83 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 10:39
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How stable do you guys think this setup will be at track days? I know it was developed as an autox setup, but I want to try a few track days this year.
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post #84 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 11:18
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^^ I am in the same boat as brotus7.. I am very curious to do the 600F/400R swaybar less setup for autocross.. but I also do a few track events throught the year... Which I "drive" to, no trailer here!! Mica has confirmed that this setup is "usable" on the street, but I can't help thinking that it would bounce and understeer like crazy on a full out track (lapping days)..

Last edited by Shane Bawa; March 12th, 2009 at 11:22.
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post #85 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 11:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim2109
did you get a dyno graph with them?
Nop...
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post #86 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 12:23
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Double post... skip this one
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post #87 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Bawa
^^ I am in the same boat as brotus7.. I am very curious to do the 600F/400R swaybar less setup for autocross.. but I also do a few track events throught the year... Which I "drive" to, no trailer here!! Mica has confirmed that this setup is "usable" on the street, but I can't help thinking that it would bounce and understeer like crazy on a full out track (lapping days)..
What makes you think that?
The principles and calculations are as applicable at track day speeds as they are at autocross speeds.
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post #88 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 12:45
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I'll find out July 17th.
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post #89 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 13:50
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This works equally well on full road courses. The one thing to keep in mind is that on a full road course, the shocks play a much bigger role in controlling body motion. You might find that because the shocks are at the limits of their capabilities that they may have trouble controlling body motion on the higher speed bumps.

I have run my autox setup on full road courses many times and found it to work just as well there at in autox. I have also used this setup on a number of track and road racing cars. In fact, the 2nd place finisher in H Prod at last fall's "Runoffs" was running my no bar setup.

I would recommend doing the 600f/350r version.

Trust me guys, it won't push. It really won't. You might find slightly more understeer in very high speed sweepers taken at full throttle. But that can be tuned out with toe settings.

-Steve
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post #90 of 389 (permalink) Old March 12th, 2009, 14:59
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by the way, I'm curious- I have a gze swap, so the rear of my car is a little heavier than normal. I read your multiple suggestions to go 600/350, worked through the original formula, and came up with 600/375. That's what I'm running now, and will be running either way, but I am curious if I had the right idea
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post #91 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 04:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Just received my new suspension.

Techno Pro Spirit Ohlins with 11kg (615lb/in) front and 7kg (391lb/in) rear.
I will also remove both antiroll bars.

It is for my MK3 which is mostly for the track.

I will try the new setup and hope to see a much better car.
Yesterday I installed the Spirit/Ohlins and drove the car for a few kilometers.

Setup is:
Front: 11kg no sway
Rear: 7kg no sway

My initial impressions are excellent, but the final judgment will be in the track.

I would like to ask the Ohlins owners some trivial questions.

1) The adjustment of the strut is stiffer clock-wise and softer anti-clock wise as we look from bellow the car?
2) Did you also receive a dyno for the struts? I did not.
3) Is any special treatment necessary for the first kilometers of the suspension?

Thanks.
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post #92 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 06:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
I would like to ask the Ohlins owners some trivial questions.

1) The adjustment of the strut is stiffer clock-wise and softer anti-clock wise as we look from bellow the car?
2) Did you also receive a dyno for the struts? I did not.
3) Is any special treatment necessary for the first kilometers of the suspension?
1) Yes, clockwise = stiffer (as you look at it), and clicks are counted from full stiff (ALWAYS start from full stiff)

2)

3) not really. but they will need servicing regularly to keep them in good shape. you can do this yourself. the actual damper inserts probably wont need a service anytime in the next few years. they are inverted so the shaft end is kept away from the elements and the seals rarely leak, and the internals are of good quality and dont fall apart easily. however the chrome outer tubes of the inserts and the bushes inside the strut case will wear out if not looked after.

i would recommend checking the grease every 6-12 months. if the car gets driven a lot in wet weather or in dusty conditions then it needs doing more often than if its driven only on tracks in californian sunshine.

basically to do this you need to remove the top mount and spring(s), remove the blue dust shield, etc so all youve got poking out the top is the chrome insert tube (make sure you note spring heights down, and remember how it came part). DO NOT clamp the chrome tube in ANY way. if you cant undo the top mount by hand then carefully use an impact gun on it whilst holding the chrome tube by hand or with a rag. then you take a 17mm wrench to the adjuster on the bottom and undo it carefully (make sure youve counted your adjustment clicks first and noted them down). once youve got the adjuster off there is another 17mm nut to undo. once this is undone youre left with the end of the shaft poking through with a slot cut in it. use a big screwdriver and CAREFULLY turn the shaft clockwise (as if youre tightening it) as you look at it. you really do have to be careful here, the slots splay outwards quite easily, and then it makes it a nightmare to get the insert out.

once youve undone the shaft the insert should then pull out of the top. on a brand new damper, once youve initially loosened the shaft you should hopefully just be able to turn the insert by hand to undo the shaft, it depends how sticky the threads are.

now that youve got the insert out it will be covered in thick yellow grease, as will the inside of the case. we will get to the grease in a minute. first off, wipe clean the top of the insert, take a hammer and a punch and knock the end cap out of the insert without being too brutal. there will be grease underneath it as well, wipe that away. now check to see if there is any leakage. pump the damper up and down a few times (be careful not to push the shaft in so far that the thread goes in as well!!), id advise winding the adjustment full soft prior to this. it should push in and out smoothly, it shouldnt "grind" or "scrape" on its way down, youll know what i mean if you ever encounter it. it isnt unusual for the shaft to be very slightly moist to the touch as it comes out, but if there is visible oil then the seals arent 100%. there should be no free stroke whatsoever. this means that the damper should exert a gradually increasing force when you push it from fully open towards closed (it increases slightly the further you get due to gas pressure). if the first few mm, or maybe even first few inches, of stroke are really easy (like no force at all) or sound like a trip to the restroom after a heavy night out then oil has leaked or has badly cavitated. this means the insert needs a service and will need to be sent to an Ohlins agent, you cant do it at home without specific know-how and the tools for the job (youre messing with 18 bar of gas pressure if you try it lol, ive seen someone take a shaft in the forehead from 12 bar, and its not pretty!). once the insert is compressed it should open back out by itself at a fairly constant rate, this will confirm that gas is present and hasnt leaked out (you cant check the pressure, but its unlikely to have leaked if all else is ok). when youre done, put some grease around the seal head on the insert (underneath the end cap) and tap the end cap back in with a plastic faced hammer. (DO NOT USE A METAL HAMMER!! if you distort the end cap it could potentially rub on the shaft)

as for the strut cases and the grease - the yellow grease in there is ok, but its not as good as the grease that Swedish Ohlins use. you need to play this one by ear really. if there is still tons of yellow grease in there and it is still yellow (like the colour of the smilies on this forum, but a little brighter) then it wont need changing. if it has any kind of brown or black colouration to it then dirt has got in, and it is now more of an abrasive than a lubricant. if it doesnt need changing then dip your finger in and rub the grease onto the 2 teflon bushes inside the case, as well as a little around the top rubber seal on the case (if the bushes are visible and not totally coated in grease, check that there is no damage to the teflon coating. it should appear a browny grey colour and be consistent all over, you shouldnt be able to see shiny metal through it, and if it appears bronzy or goldy then the bushes are worn down and could introduce play into the strut). rub a little grease around the top of the insert (e.g. the end where the shaft goes in) so that it doesnt do any damage on its way back in to the dirt seal or bushes), and gently push it back in. it shouldnt offer hardly any resistance, if it does then youve got it in there kinked or the bushes are worn or something is wrong somewhere.

if the grease needs replacing you need to clean it all out using a rag, and possibly a cleaning tank if you have one. dont use anything too hardcore in there or it will eat at the bushes. just a rag will suffice really, you dont need to get every last trace out, just the majority of it. then buy yourself a tub of Omega 77 grease. its thick red grease that youll need to put plenty of into the cases. you dont need to go insane here (not as much as there was yellow grease in there to begin with!), but use a small brush and put it about 3-5mm thick on the 2 bushes, then put about twice as much as you have put on the bushes just randomly on the case wall in between the bushes. then put a bit around the rubber dirt seal, and some on the end cap of the damper insert. then put it back in as detailed above

once youre done you need to screw the insert shaft back into the strut case at the bottom (reverse of disassembly). dont do it up tight, it needs to be screwed by hand until it stops then ever so slightly tweaked with a screwdriver, it DOESNT need to be super tight!! the tighter you do it the more you will screw it up for next time. the lock nut then goes on (which is the reason why the shaft doesnt need to be too tight) and this does want doing up quite tight. then the adjuster gets screwed on, and this gets done up not too tight, but not too loose that it will come off. when you are screwing it on by hand, the round adjuster part is sprung loaded. pull it out as you tighten the nut so that it doesnt move the adjuster, otherwise you can overtighten the adjuster in the shaft and break it. check it adjusts ok, and put the springs, etc back on, and youre done!

(to be continued....)
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post #93 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 06:55
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(continued....)

a quick note about inspecting the chrome insert tubes as well. they wear against the bushes inside the strut case. when the insert is out make sure that there arent any chips or damaged areas on the chrome tube. it is normal for there to be brown wear areas, but they should still be perfectly smooth to the touch. any roughness or surface damage will tear the bushes apart. once the tubes go bad they are near impossible to source replacements for, and to do it using Swedish Ohlins tubes costs a fortune. this is why you need to take care of these dampers!
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post #94 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 07:03
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Thanks for all this info!

In the street how many clicks from full stiff do you run? What about the track?

I cannot wait to go to the track with this setup!

I will be able to do a good comparison because I have data (telemetry and times) with the same car.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the suspension so the comparison will show the real difference!
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post #95 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikrip
Thanks for all this info!

In the street how many clicks from full stiff do you run? What about the track?

I cannot wait to go to the track with this setup!

I will be able to do a good comparison because I have data (telemetry and times) with the same car.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the suspension so the comparison will show the real difference!
depends on the valving inside them. thats why i asked if you had dyno graphs, because from what ive read these are valved slightly differently to the normal Japanese Ohlins units.

id say to start somewhere around 15-20 clicks from full stiff front and rear and then adjust it from there. on track you could end up going much closer to full stiff to bring low speed forces into play more. without seeing dyno prints though its hard to speculate. try 18 clicks on the road and 8 clicks on track. if you cant figure out where to adjust from there then post up some detailed feedback on the handling (or high quality video of the car (externally, not in-car) through a few different corners) and il see if i can suggest from there.

if you ever need them servicing or want them revalving give me a shout. ive got a Roehrig 3VS dyno on the way, and all the tools and most of the parts, plus the experience of having worked on more sets of Jap Ohlins than i would have liked over the years lol. normally people dont get them serviced regularly enough and they are beyond repair by the time they do (they dont get them serviced until they are knocking and banging with 10mm of side play!! as opposed to regularly to avoid that ever happening). and we used to service a few different sets of dampers from Greek customers where i previously worked, the shipping costs arent prohibitive and Ohlins dealers are harder to come by in your part of the world.

Last edited by Jim2109; March 13th, 2009 at 07:15.
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post #96 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 07:18
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Once the time comes I'll contact you for the service

I should have asked for a dyno. Maybe I do a dyno in the first repair...
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post #97 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 08:47
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if you ever want them dyno'd then give me a shout. try them out first, if youre having problems getting the car handling how you want then take it from there. they are fully revalvable to near enough infinite combnations of bump and rebound characteristics (peak force is your limiting factor, and youll never need enough force for it to be an issue). whatever the graph wants to look like, it can be acheived. its one of the main reasons why i love working with Ohlins dampers (Penske as well). you can get them to do exactly what you picture in your head without too much effort, which you just cant with many other dampers without introducing problems
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post #98 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 09:59
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Is that level of maintenance necessary on the Koni's? O.o I guess I can do it if it is, but I wasn't aware there even existed a strut you had to disassemble and regrease on a regular basis.
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post #99 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 12:17
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Koni's arent inverted so they dont require the same maintenance. the Ohlins dont necessarily NEED regreasing, but if youre spending $2500+ on a set of dampers and there is the potential for them to be destroyed 2 years down the line if you dont look after them, its not a bad idea to do it. for the sake of a couple of hours work once in a while youre going to save yourself a lot of money in the long run

with regular struts like Konis with the shaft coming out the top youve got lower maintenance, but the technology isnt of the same standard, and once seals start leaking at some point in time youve then got to pay for the rebuild to be done. the Ohlins inserts rarely ever leak because the shaft and seals are so well protected from the elements, but they do suffer from tube wear (more so on race cars than road cars because of the increased lateral loadings). its the drawback to increased lateral rigidity, decreased unsprung weight and higher quality damping.
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post #100 of 389 (permalink) Old March 13th, 2009, 13:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim2109
if you ever want them dyno'd then give me a shout. try them out first, if youre having problems getting the car handling how you want then take it from there. they are fully revalvable to near enough infinite combnations of bump and rebound characteristics (peak force is your limiting factor, and youll never need enough force for it to be an issue). whatever the graph wants to look like, it can be acheived. its one of the main reasons why i love working with Ohlins dampers (Penske as well). you can get them to do exactly what you picture in your head without too much effort, which you just cant with many other dampers without introducing problems
Could you post the dyno of yours?
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