STS2 MK1 suspension setup w/host XHead - Page 5 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #81 of 162 (permalink) Old July 7th, 2008, 11:59 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno
How would you rate its fantasticness?
Very high to the point of where I feel I can just concentrate on driving now and not worry about the car setup as much....I know crazy right?

I think I'm going to pick up a new steering wheels the 350mm is too damn big for the car, a nice 320 would be perfect and alow me not to hit everthing inside the car with my elbows.
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post #82 of 162 (permalink) Old July 7th, 2008, 13:52
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Originally Posted by MicaCeli
The car.....WOW it's fantastic. Seriously fantastic. I'm only limited by my driving now.
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post #83 of 162 (permalink) Old July 7th, 2008, 14:11
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Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Very high to the point of where I feel I can just concentrate on driving now and not worry about the car setup as much....I know crazy right?
Good description actually. This setup does respond exceptionally well to the driver. To that end, the driver doesn't have to think about what the car does, only what he wants it to do. And it does it.

For me it has meant that I can focus on driving and not driving around the car's issues.

-Steve
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post #84 of 162 (permalink) Old July 7th, 2008, 14:45 Thread Starter
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Steve, thank you man.

It was so easy to set up and the car just feels fantastic now. Lot's of people drove it this weekend also, they all loved it....they did not love the lack of power but once I walked them through the whole momentum car thing (most of them drive high horse power cars) they all had a blast....and got better times then I did

It's funny how I can teach people how to outdrive me Only if I could take my own advice.

I'll throw the picture up with a Noble M400 that was at the Auto-X again when my friend sends it to me.
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post #85 of 162 (permalink) Old July 7th, 2008, 16:08
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The Noble would be cool, but I would rather see pics of the 2 in action. Seriously, I would like to see how much body roll the car has. That would tell me how close I was on estimating total roll rate.

I am glad you are so happy with the setup. I would love to have been there. Seeing the initial reaction is always fun

-Steve
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post #86 of 162 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2008, 02:24
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MicaCeli, did you do away with the swaybars?
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post #87 of 162 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2008, 09:03 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
The Noble would be cool, but I would rather see pics of the 2 in action. Seriously, I would like to see how much body roll the car has. That would tell me how close I was on estimating total roll rate.

I am glad you are so happy with the setup. I would love to have been there. Seeing the initial reaction is always fun

-Steve
The lot has a big bump/dip in it and the car handled it very nice. There was a little bit of bounce in the front that I was noticing when my wife was driving, I bumped the koni's up a bit and it looked like the bounce was gone. The rear does wag a bit sometimes but it catches itself very easily. I did drift a few corners because I went in too hot into them and after the fist time let the car catch itself.

Oh and I picked up a Sparco 330mm steering wheel with another spacer and the wheel is right where the wife and I like it now. No more getting up on the steering wheel. We shall see how it feels this weekend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by verno-dub
MicaCeli, did you do away with the swaybars?
Yup. No swaybars at all. Front 600lbs rear 400lbs....I was working of the 2500lb car (2300 for car and 200 for driver) Diled that down a tiny bit so it would fit between the wife and I.

Car feels like it just lost 500 lbs with the sway bars gone, there is so much steering feedback and the car just sticks. I had people that drove the car come back over and over again not believing that I had 195/50/15 street tires on the car.
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post #88 of 162 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2008, 09:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
The lot has a big bump/dip in it and the car handled it very nice. There was a little bit of bounce in the front that I was noticing when my wife was driving, I bumped the koni's up a bit and it looked like the bounce was gone.
Bingo. With rates that stiff, the shocks have to control the body motion in addition to the spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
The rear does wag a bit sometimes but it catches itself very easily. I did drift a few corners because I went in too hot into them and after the fist time let the car catch itself.
I suspect that is the result of the toe settings you are using. That can be fixed easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Car feels like it just lost 500 lbs with the sway bars gone, there is so much steering feedback and the car just sticks. I had people that drove the car come back over and over again not believing that I had 195/50/15 street tires on the car.
HA! You are hitting all of the points. I was waiting to see how many you picked up on. Now that you have driven a well setup car with no swaybars you see how many negatives swaybars have? Better and lighter steering feel and response, improved ride quality and more grip. There are is no downside.

Also, I have been telling people for 10 years that swaybars reduce grip. They always want to argue with me. Even though they haven't tried it, they just don't want to even consider it.

-Steve
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post #89 of 162 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2008, 09:50 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XHead
I suspect that is the result of the toe settings you are using. That can be fixed easily.
Yes alignment would be next toe is only about 1/16th in in the rear BUT that was before I lowered a car a little bit....I have not done an alignment yet because I await your advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHead
HA! You are hitting all of the points. I was waiting to see how many you picked up on. Now that you have driven a well setup car with no swaybars you see how many negatives swaybars have? Better and lighter steering feel and response, improved ride quality and more grip. There are is no downside.

Also, I have been telling people for 10 years that swaybars reduce grip. They always want to argue with me. Even though they haven't tried it, they just don't want to even consider it.

-Steve
Well yeah....sway bars come with cars so you should put bigger ones on

Seriously if you look to see how a sway bar works I can see how and when they would take away grip. I I think you can use sway bars just make sure that they are like half the spring rate of your springs.....right?
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post #90 of 162 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2008, 10:31
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Yes, swaybars should be used as a trim device only. Never the primary means of roll control. Most modern, purpose built, racecars use very light swaybars. Most are adjustable and are either on or off.

They are used as a method of adjustment to correct for changes in fuel load, tire wear and surface changes.

-Steve
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post #91 of 162 (permalink) Old July 21st, 2008, 15:01
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Well, I just finished my second Auto-x on Xhead's DP setup on my CSP car. I wanted to run a second auto-x before I commented here because I wanted to see if what i was feeling was a "fluke".

First off Steveo...the setup recommendations make the car PHENOMENAL, way above what i was normally used to driving in a mki. The car has a lighter turn in effort, steering feedback is incredible, and stays composed in fast transitions. amazing. I mean its to the point where I get all giddy in my helmet because I can turn in, have the car take a set and slice a corner off a cone.

The set up also allows me to really utilize the available grip my V710's have to offer better with a much more aggressive setup in terms of camber and air pressure. The car just takes a set and......sticks. I did find that it fast sweepers the car tends to understeer at the extreme limit but all i needed to do was slightly lift the throttle and the nose tucked right back into my original line. I also noticed that if the car did step out, which was driver error, it was totally controllable and with no drama.

Driving the car with the new setup made me not have to worry about the car, just concentrate on my run. Its a refreshing feeling and frees up my already busy mind for the task at hand. The car brings out all the driver errors I was previously making to the fore front, and with the brutal way the car grips in the corners and transitions, you really need a better seat and restraint system as well as way more power to utilize all the newfound grip and cornering speed. I cant wait to finish my DP car now, CSP MKI's are extremely heavy.

I almost feel inadequate as a driver with a car this good, lol. Thank you very much Steve, you helped me get enthused about auto-x again.
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post #92 of 162 (permalink) Old July 21st, 2008, 16:55
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Hey Verno, are you running with no sway bars as well?

Thanks,
Ryan
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post #93 of 162 (permalink) Old July 21st, 2008, 23:05
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Originally Posted by verno-dub
Thank you very much Steve, you helped me get enthused about auto-x again.


Great to hear you are so happy with how the car turned out. I was wondering if you had gotten the setup done and driven it yet.

I should point out that what you have isn't exactly my DP setup. What I put together for your car is pretty much what I did for MicaCeli only tuned to fit the CSP variant. The DP car has its own unique set of variables. The LSD, lighter weight, waaay more power, cantilever slicks.... all of those things really affect the setup.

-Steve
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post #94 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:04
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Hey Verno, are you running with no sway bars as well?

Thanks,
Ryan
yes, no swaybars.

Speaking of which...im totally against the use of them now...a convert so to speak. Its funny though, because, I now have guys coming to me asking about my setup and i tell them to lose the bars, they give me a strange look and walk away confused. I feel like a shunned outlaw and love it.
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post #95 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:12
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Originally Posted by XHead


Great to hear you are so happy with how the car turned out. I was wondering if you had gotten the setup done and driven it yet.

I should point out that what you have isn't exactly my DP setup. What I put together for your car is pretty much what I did for MicaCeli only tuned to fit the CSP variant. The DP car has its own unique set of variables. The LSD, lighter weight, waaay more power, cantilever slicks.... all of those things really affect the setup.

-Steve
yeah I figured it wasnt a true DP setup but more of a starting point towards one.

With that said, i have the opportunity to get my hands on a brand new clutch type Cusco 1-way limited slip, is it a decent 1-way or should I be looking at another brand and/or 1.5 or 2 way lsd?

As for the power, that is something I wanted to talk to you about. I looked over your engine build thread but there are some key things left out of the build thread, so I will have to email you directly on that subject off the forums. Whats the email again, Steve?

Oh and here is what I was talking about when I said the car was so good I could literally cut the corners off the cones!


Last edited by verno-dub; July 22nd, 2008 at 01:28.
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post #96 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 10:17 Thread Starter
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Nice.

Steve is our guru. Better soak in everything he has untill he starts his own shop and starts charging us to set up the cars
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post #97 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 13:24
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Originally Posted by verno-dub
... i tell them to lose the bars, they give me a strange look and walk away confused. I feel like a shunned outlaw and love it.
Welcome to the "Black Sheep" club.

Some of you may have read the thread over in the Mk1 forum where I brought this up. Needless to say, it wasn't universally accepted.

As I have noted previously, my success was built on bucking the "conventional wisdom".

-Steve
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post #98 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 15:26 Thread Starter
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Heck Steve, it works and that's all that matters.
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post #99 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 16:29
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Originally Posted by MicaCeli
Heck Steve, it works and that's all that matters.
I surely does work. I spent a lot of time working on this methodology. Figuring out all of the interactions and putting the elements together into a functioning package took a lot of work on the computer and testing.

When I first put a setup like this on my DSP car (back in '94) I got lots of funny looks and lots of people telling me it wouldn't work. That it couldn't work. Often by people I was beating.

Back then, the conventional wisdom was: Springs should be as soft as possible, that they only held the car up. It was the shocks and bars that were used to control body roll. That just didn't make sense to me. But, because I assumed I didn't know as much as the experienced guys (and I certainly didn't at the time) I put a big f'ing front swaybar on my car. It was awful. Then I put an even bigger front bar at the advise of a respected engineer. It was worse.

On the way home from Nationals that September, I decided I needed to better understand chassis tuning. A month later, I tested my first "all spring" setup just as a baseline to try and understand what "just springs" did and then add swaybars back into the equasion. That event was a revelation and I never put the bars back on. And never looked back.

-Steve

Last edited by XHead; July 22nd, 2008 at 18:54.
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post #100 of 162 (permalink) Old July 22nd, 2008, 18:36
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....That event was a revelation and I never put the bars back on. And never looked back.
and neither will I.
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