5th gear pop out, Best route to take now? - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 11:34 Thread Starter
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5th gear pop out, Best route to take now?

Hey folks,

My MR2 has recently developed the infamous 5th gear pop out.
So what is the best route to take now?

Note that I have done all the "patch fixes" already. Shifter bushings replaced with bearings, Cables adjusted, oil replaced with Redline synthetic, Motor mounts replaced with Yoshi's poly mounts ( excellent product by the way ).


I've done some research and most people say that rebuilding the trans is PITA, and not worth it.

I've never rebuilt a trans before, and frankly begin a student I probably dont have time too.

Also buying a used or pulling a junkyard C-50 is going to be risky and will probably end up with the same issue.

Some say to swap in a more available and better built C52. What considerations are there for this? Does it bolt in fine? Will I have to drill the selector shaft to the other side or re-locate the starter or some ________ like that?

Do I need to pull one from a 86 + MK1B MR2 or can I pull a more available corolla or Geo-Prizm one ?

Looking at the Wiki page I'm also confused on the Gear ratios.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission#C50

Does the C52 have a different final drive than the C50 ?

What kind of cost am I looking at for this Job?

It's mostly used as a track car where I don't even use 5th gear, but lately I've been driving it as a DD and will need to continue doing so after the snow melts up here in the U.P as my brother is turning of driving age and inheriting the Subaru.

Thanks,
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 15:08
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C52 bolts right in, as long as it's the same layout as the MR2. A front wheel drive trans requires mods to the case and swapping the MR2's linkage.
The earlier C52 has a bunch of the same problems as the C50, 3rd gear and the 5th pop out, but it is stronger. your best bet is to go with the later model Mk1 MR2s. If you decide to go with a FWD trans try to stick with the GT or GTS models with the 4AGE as the FE models typically have higher finals and wider ratios throughout, for economy. If you can, the C56 from the AE101/111 with the 20v engine are even stronger. The tools are out there to mod the case for the MR linkage, or you can have the tools made for yourself, I did. And it is not necessary to tear down the trans to drill the case for the MR bits. If you want to get even deeper into it, any 'C' series trans guts can be transplanted into a C52 trans case, including the 6 speed. Yeah, a littler long winded, but I hope it helps. GL.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 15:09
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Oh yeah, when I say linkage I mean selector shaft.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 15:14
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If you decide to have the trans rebuilt, have the shop shim the gears and bearings to reduce play. The helical cut gears cause longitudinal movement of all the gears, bearing, etc. which contribute to the accelerated wear on the synchro parts and lend to the 5th gear pop out malady.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 15:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsneeb View Post
I've done some research and most people say that rebuilding the trans is PITA, and not worth it.
You don't need to rebuild the transmission. You only need to replace 5th gear, which is located entirely under the endcap.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 18:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsneeb View Post
Hey folks,

My MR2 has recently developed the infamous 5th gear pop out.
So what is the best route to take now?

Note that I have done all the "patch fixes" already. Shifter bushings replaced with bearings, Cables adjusted, oil replaced with Redline synthetic, Motor mounts replaced with Yoshi's poly mounts ( excellent product by the way ).


I've done some research and most people say that rebuilding the trans is PITA, and not worth it.

I've never rebuilt a trans before, and frankly begin a student I probably dont have time too.

Also buying a used or pulling a junkyard C-50 is going to be risky and will probably end up with the same issue.

Some say to swap in a more available and better built C52. What considerations are there for this? Does it bolt in fine? Will I have to drill the selector shaft to the other side or re-locate the starter or some ________ like that?

Do I need to pull one from a 86 + MK1B MR2 or can I pull a more available corolla or Geo-Prizm one ?

Looking at the Wiki page I'm also confused on the Gear ratios.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission#C50

Does the C52 have a different final drive than the C50 ?

What kind of cost am I looking at for this Job?

It's mostly used as a track car where I don't even use 5th gear, but lately I've been driving it as a DD and will need to continue doing so after the snow melts up here in the U.P as my brother is turning of driving age and inheriting the Subaru.

Thanks,

Dude,


Install a silvertop C-56 or newer blacktop C-56. The silvertop is the easier of the two to modify the selector shaft housing for conversion to usage in an AW11 MR2, but either decision is easier than opening up a transmission if you don't have that type of experience (such as myself).



Good luck...

Last edited by Chesterkv; November 1st, 2015 at 11:18.
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 18:54
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Common dilemma when faced with a tranny change on a Mk1. Used trannies have the risk of unknown issues unless you can trust the seller 100%. You could be putting back in a tranny with the same issues or worse. Rebuilds should be done from a reputable shop so you know you are getting a good, long lasting tranny. With a tranny replacement you should seriously consider new clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing, along with a flywheel resurface and a new rear engine seal. All can be done as a DIY, but we know it ain't real fun. Good luck on your choice and hunt. Do it once-Do it right.
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old October 31st, 2015, 21:37
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My 86 C52 single starter boss transmission started to pop out of 5th at about 150K miles. It initially would only jump out on deceleration but eventually it would do it constantly. I found a General Motors packaged FWD C52 with the dual starter bosses on ebay that was NOS. It was for a NOVA, as in chevrolet nova. I won the auction for $300 delivered and converted the transmission to RWD. Biggest issue is the large coolant metal line running along the side of the 4age was hitting the spare starter boss. I could not easily or quickly obtain a later 4age model steel line so I sawed the aluminum bell housing starter boss to make room for the original line. I put well over 100K miles on that transmission and it held up fine.

John
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old November 2nd, 2015, 11:26
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C52

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTXmr2 View Post
My 86 C52 single starter boss transmission started to pop out of 5th at about 150K miles. It initially would only jump out on deceleration but eventually it would do it constantly. I found a General Motors packaged FWD C52 with the dual starter bosses on ebay that was NOS. It was for a NOVA, as in chevrolet nova. I won the auction for $300 delivered and converted the transmission to RWD. Biggest issue is the large coolant metal line running along the side of the 4age was hitting the spare starter boss. I could not easily or quickly obtain a later 4age model steel line so I sawed the aluminum bell housing starter boss to make room for the original line. I put well over 100K miles on that transmission and it held up fine.

John
I just installed a C52 from a late model AW11 in my 85 MR2; the C52 [I installed] has the dual starter boss, which I wanted for a turbo install down the road (didn't want my starter "cooked" by the turbo). The steel line didn't interfere with the boss, but did interfere (barely) with the starter (from a SC MR-2). Addressed by adding a radiator hose replacing part of the metal coolant line.

I still have the C50 if you're interested, though eventually you may have the pop out issue on it as well. Less than 100k miles on it. The clutch was OEM and still looked good, so car has not been driven hard. The C50's are light enough that they can be shipped via UPS.

Last edited by rbneron; November 3rd, 2015 at 10:53. Reason: Clarification that MY C52 has dual starter bosses
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old November 2nd, 2015, 16:06
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some tidbits from a guy who rebuild s alot of these:

the difference between a C50 and C52 is in the input shaft in the area of 3rd and 4th gears and how they space the bearings for 4th gear. the C50 has a machined ring where the 52 has a spacer. that's it. the 52 allows for better control of the axial play in the shaft as a result.

C52's in the MR2 don't ALWAYS have 2 starter humps. look on the driver's (left) side of the case to the rear of the axle shaft and a C50 will have only the casting webs, while a 52 will have additional cast standoffs or same with tapped holes and a stamped VIN plate bolted to the case with break-off bolts securing it to those standoffs. those boxes have the updated internals. 2 humps are all C52s, but ot all C52s have 2 humps.

5th gear popout is a result of wear to the engagement splines of 5th and the selector sleeve for 5th. you can replace both of these parts and the synchro pretty easily only breaking into the top portion of the case, menaing all the more difficult "OMG transmission!!" issues are minimized. you do want to have the box OFF the car, though, and a good 3 jaw puller.

for mo-better repair, get a 5th gear, sleeve, hub, synchro and keys/springs from a Scion xD. updated design, same gear ratios. this is THE fix using C52 internals for the 3rd gear NLA / 1999 TB update hybrid sleeve issue for which the synchro is NLA.

if you are in FL, find me and I'll gladly rebuild you a box.

Last edited by chipperpunk; November 2nd, 2015 at 16:09.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old November 2nd, 2015, 17:34 Thread Starter
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ChipperPunk, Could you go into more details on the C52 to C50 internals swap.

Where Can i get these parts and for how much? How much would a junkyard C52 from a Scion XB cost if I got to like a pick and pull myself with a buddy and pull it in the yard ourselves.

Does a typical C50 rebuild kit contain the parts I need to repair just 5th gear?
Something like this...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-17-9m...BS2c4Q&vxp=mtr

Unfortunately not in Florida, Id gladly pull it and take it to someone experienced for help or a basic rebuild.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old November 2nd, 2015, 17:47
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As mentioned in your C50 wanted thread, consider having a shop repair your transmission.

Replacement parts in the c50 seem to cure reliability issues. Certainly true of my brother's 2ZZ/c50 which after fixing the #2 and #5 has not had any problems after nothing but hard racing since 2007.

If you deliver the transmission you save the cost of labor to remove/install, and repair becomes considerably more economic. Purchasing/shipping a c52 or another c50 may not save you any money, and may not be any more reliable than the serviced c50.

The c50 does enjoy closer ratios than the c52, that are desirable for more aggressive driving.

I have have a c56 in my FX16. The stock bluetop does wind up nicely with it. If it is an easy FWD->MR conversion I'd say Chester's suggestion is a good if you can find an economic source. Buy one with a 20 valve 4AGE attached to it!
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old November 3rd, 2015, 10:33
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C50 and 52 are the same ratios.

the 5th gear parts needed are:
5th gear (Input side): 33036-12011 (this is the C52 5th)
Synchro hub #3 Sleeve: 33395-12010
Synchro ring, hub #3: 33369-12030

some of the PNs may have been superceded, that's fine, your Toyota guy can tell you. I know the synchro # above is the superceding PN for the C52. Not at home now so don't have access to my most recent order records.

check the axial play of the input shaft to be sure you are within spec. if too much you will have to rebuild the whole thing. if you've been holding the car in 5th while running, you'll want to get a new fork (33214-10021 - this is 88-89 but both work) due to the loading you've put on the wear pads.

pulling a box from a Scion xB isn't a big deal, FINDING one on the other hand... most are autos. I know from the breaker here they are ~$850 which is steep. it's about $400 jobber rate for the conversion parts to replace 3-4 and the #2 hub, sleeve, synchros (different PNs for 3rd and 4th gears) and keys/springs. and you should put them on a C52 input shaft and replace the #4 driven gear as well. counter shafts all swap around just fine 5spd to 5spd and there's no need to change your C50 in an upgrade. If you do: remember that the final drive is half on the counter ("output") shaft and that the shaft and ring gear should be kept as a pair once run together.

Last edited by chipperpunk; November 3rd, 2015 at 10:37.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old November 3rd, 2015, 13:38
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Thanks Chipperpunk for posting this...really good stuff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipperpunk View Post
C50 and 52 are the same ratios.

the 5th gear parts needed are:
5th gear (Input side): 33036-12011 (this is the C52 5th)
Synchro hub #3 Sleeve: 33395-12010
Synchro ring, hub #3: 33369-12030

some of the PNs may have been superceded, that's fine, your Toyota guy can tell you. I know the synchro # above is the superceding PN for the C52. Not at home now so don't have access to my most recent order records.

check the axial play of the input shaft to be sure you are within spec. if too much you will have to rebuild the whole thing. if you've been holding the car in 5th while running, you'll want to get a new fork (33214-10021 - this is 88-89 but both work) due to the loading you've put on the wear pads.

pulling a box from a Scion xB isn't a big deal, FINDING one on the other hand... most are autos. I know from the breaker here they are ~$850 which is steep. it's about $400 jobber rate for the conversion parts to replace 3-4 and the #2 hub, sleeve, synchros (different PNs for 3rd and 4th gears) and keys/springs. and you should put them on a C52 input shaft and replace the #4 driven gear as well. counter shafts all swap around just fine 5spd to 5spd and there's no need to change your C50 in an upgrade. If you do: remember that the final drive is half on the counter ("output") shaft and that the shaft and ring gear should be kept as a pair once run together.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old November 4th, 2015, 11:24 Thread Starter
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Good info chipperpunk!

I'm busy for the near future and will only need to drive the car about 400 miles by the end of the month so I guess I'll live with it for now.

Once the car is in storage for the winter I'll look into the parts and perhaps spend a month or two looking for a spare trans with either lower miles or that is hella cheap so I can rebuild and swap in the spring.
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old November 6th, 2015, 13:11
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I did this myself with zero transmission experience (well, I did a clutch). Chipperpunk was very instrumental in me getting this done. I could have done it on the car too, but I did if off the car. I used these three sites/videos for reference as well:

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?...d5047de8b35322

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/fithgear.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOFJNFhQ0lw

Hope this helps
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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old November 6th, 2015, 16:48
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Great info guys! I think a lot of us are really going to appreciate having this info! Many Mk1 owners have this issue and I think more people will now take it upon themselves to do this 5th gear DIY repair. If anyone does it, do a diy video and post it!
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old November 6th, 2015, 17:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
I did this myself with zero transmission experience (well, I did a clutch). Chipperpunk was very instrumental in me getting this done. I could have done it on the car too, but I did if off the car. I used these three sites/videos for reference as well:

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?...d5047de8b35322

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/fithgear.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOFJNFhQ0lw

Hope this helps
Definitely a big thanks for posting those links. Always nice to have important info like that consolidated. Makes me almost wish my '86 needed the work, lol.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old November 6th, 2015, 21:08
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Looked simple?

I watched a Mr2 owner make this repair on his 5th gear at the track in 2-3 hours.
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old November 10th, 2015, 02:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmeller View Post
You don't need to rebuild the transmission. You only need to replace 5th gear, which is located entirely under the endcap.
I guess I'm the only one who read this. This is the fix, the ball supports on the 5th gear bearings are made of plastic, it deteriorates over time and that's what causes the play on the shaft.
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