New MAF tube available very soon for 2gr-fe swaps. - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 173 (permalink) Old July 8th, 2018, 20:48 Thread Starter
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New MAF tube available very soon for 2gr-fe swaps.

*edit, the part is now available for sale: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squar...gr-fe-maf-pipe and the ECUs are here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squar...fq5676nqfb0vew and here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squar...d-earlier-rav4 end edit*

I’m just about to release a new 2GR-FE product. It was actually made for the 2AR-FE swap I’m doing for the MKIII spyder but it is very useful for this swap also.
Many people have complained over the years about the MAF pipe fuel trim issues and they really seem to be all over the map from +25%(lean) to -20%(rich). There are even outliers outside of those numbers.
The ridiculous thing is these issues show up with MAF pipes that look almost identical to the eye. Aerodynamics inside something like this is tricky.
That’s why when I decided to come up with a solution it needed to be a one piece solution so no small weld differences could interfere with the flow.
I also debated back and forth on trying to come up with a pipe that works with the stock calibration or making a pipe that flows nicely and producing a matching calibration. For performance and simplicity I ended up going with the 2nd route.
This is what I came up with:


It fits a 6” filter right on this nice velocity stack entrance:


The production parts are here and I’ve just finished up the preliminary 2-plug tune but I want to do some testing before starting to sell it. Thankfully Alex Wilhelm has one of the cars that ended up with bad fuel trims so I’m working with him to test out the tune. We should have results back later this week.

For now there will not be a bracket included with this, I’m currently only planning on making one for the MKIII but if there is enough interest I’ll make a mounting bracket for the MKII also.

The calibration uses the newer MAF sensor, it was tuned with 22204-28010 but these should all be damn near identical: 22204-0T020, 22204-0T040, 22204-0V010, 22204-0V020, 22204-28010. The older family: 22204-0H010, 22204-31010, 22204-31020 has a little less resolution around idle so it’ll have slightly leaner fuel trims (more positive) than the one I tuned it with but the difference is about 1-2% as soon as you’re over about 15hp worth of air.

I aimed for about 2-3% rich across the board except for idle where I aimed for 5% lean. The ECU obviously has no issues correcting for idle AFRs but this seems to prevent a bit of gas smell on startup. It does unfortunately quiet the start-up bark though. At least on my car I no longer have a startup rev-flare.

Pricing, I will be selling the MAF tube with MAF sensor fasteners on its own for $158 with the option to add an AEM 21-209EDK filter and Vibrant Performance reinforced silicone coupler with t-bolt clamps for $58.

This will require a tune update to run this filter, for now I will do tune updates for the cost of return shipping only for everyone that is running my ECU tune already. I will also offer an exchange service to avoid car down-time for the same price but you will need to pay the full $370+$170 core up front to guarantee the return of the old ECU. The $540 will be refunded upon receipt of the modified ECU being returned. This service will likely eventually be raised to $25 to re-tune the ECU but I want to give some advantage to the early adopters.

Last edited by Gouky; October 4th, 2018 at 19:18.
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post #2 of 173 (permalink) Old July 9th, 2018, 09:53
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Wow I love that velocity stack. I was debating modifying the RacerX intake box I had to fit with the 2gr but this would probably be a better solution. Any butt-dyno differences?
edit:
The length makes it look like it ends at the strut tower on an MKII, is that so?

Last edited by ay90533; July 9th, 2018 at 09:56.
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post #3 of 173 (permalink) Old July 9th, 2018, 20:15 Thread Starter
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My butt-dyno is a bit off calibration right now. I've mostly been working on the 2AR-FE MKIII but i can talk through it a bit. Here's a really crappy flow simulation that shows the difference.

The simulation parameters are 1 bar atmospheric pressure on the outside and 30lb/min of air flow which is about right for peak power on this motor. On the left is with the velocity stack, on the right is without.

Note that the scale is different on each simulation. on the left it shows a peak of about 105mph and on the right the peak is 153mph.


The difference is the pipe on the left has uniform speed and the pipe on the right is much faster in the middle. the uniform speed of course allows more air to flow at an overall lower speed which means less restriction to flow.

Now what does this translate to in "real" numbers, I don't expect it to be much if it's even measurable. the goal was more for drive-ability and to solve this problem that so many people were having to get a calibrated MAF tube.

The real number is this probably changes the pressure at the butterfly from 14.2psi to 14.6psi at absolute most and the actual change could be nothing. That 0.4psi is worth about 8hp on this motor at the top and from what i understand air does not really start to choke until about 50% of the speed of sound and even the tube without the velocity stack is only flowing at 20% of the speed of sound at the peak.

As for the install position, this does not go directly on the throttle body, this is expected to go after the stock intake elbow which contains the PCV inlet. You don't have to use the stock unit, you can just use any elbow you'd like with a PCV inlet but it does have to be brought in. This was a compromise to keep costs down and to make it more compatible with other applications. of course since this isn't the entire intake pipe, its calibration can still be affected but it is much less likely than by affecting anything upstream. This is the same principle that wind tunnels work on, other than overall flow things that are downstream do not affect the shape of the stream ahead.

Alex will be getting this ECU on Wednesday and hopefully posting some feedback. He will also get a dyno run made to compare to his previous dyno run on his car seen here:


My gut says we'll see a 5hp peak increase.
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post #4 of 173 (permalink) Old July 9th, 2018, 21:28
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Quote:
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My gut says we'll see a 5hp peak increase.
That would be awesome. Planning on going to the dyno with it on Thursday.


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post #5 of 173 (permalink) Old July 11th, 2018, 19:47
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All right, new intake and ECU have arrived, and are installed.





The elbow in my case is a chunk of 3" aluminum tube with a port welded on for the PCV. As Marc mentioned above, you can also use one of the OEM elbows in this location. A bracket to support it is on is on my to-do list for this as well.

Initial impressions... I'm impressed. Fuel trims are less than 10 throughout most cruise conditions, with some areas being less than 5. On my setup they tend to sit in the +5 to +10 range cruising on the highway at 75mph, and in the 0 to +5 range at 45mph. At idle my fuel trims are around +10 to +12. Still, well within reasonable limits. Overall, it seems that my setup is running about 10% leaner than what Marc was shooting for. I'm not sure why that is, but it does seem to indicate some mechanical difference between my setup and some others.

My car has NEVER before run this good with a 3" intake, that's for sure. Also, my car doesn't seem to have lost the startup flare as Marc said his did.

One thing to note, I did all of this with the $18 ebay MAF sensor that I bought when I initially did my swap, and it might be reading a little off. Marc also sent the MAF sensor that he used when testing the calibration so I might throw that one in to compare. But I probably won't get around to that test for a few days.

Butt dyno says it seems to run a little smoother, and might be making a bit more power. But my butt dyno hasn't been calibrated since 1984, and even when new those things are a little unreliable That's OK, will have REAL dyno results tomorrow!


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post #6 of 173 (permalink) Old July 11th, 2018, 19:55 Thread Starter
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Alex, thank you for the early feedback. That is curious that it is compensating for a lean condition anywhere on the map. My goal was to be as close to zero as possible but slightly rich before fuel trims are applied. As you mentioned i sent you the exact MAF i tuned this with to see if it makes a difference.

The idle trims are lean and that is expected. I'm not sure why it acts like this but it seems when i get everything else zero'd out that is at +5-+8 or so. Since you're a little leaner across the board i'm not surprised to see +10 or +12 there and that certainly is not an issue. I can make the lean idle go away but then it's way rich just barely off idle and i wanted to avoid gasoline smells.

I can't wait for tomorrow's results. Thank you for doing this for me!
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post #7 of 173 (permalink) Old July 11th, 2018, 20:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouky View Post
Alex, thank you for the early feedback. That is curious that it is compensating for a lean condition anywhere on the map. My goal was to be as close to zero as possible but slightly rich before fuel trims are applied. As you mentioned i sent you the exact MAF i tuned this with to see if it makes a difference.

The idle trims are lean and that is expected. I'm not sure why it acts like this but it seems when i get everything else zero'd out that is at +5-+8 or so. Since you're a little leaner across the board i'm not surprised to see +10 or +12 there and that certainly is not an issue. I can make the lean idle go away but then it's way rich just barely off idle and i wanted to avoid gasoline smells.

I can't wait for tomorrow's results. Thank you for doing this for me!
Yeah, I definitely plan to do some testing with your MAF before I send it back. As far as why it's a touch lean, could be a lot of things. I really should get my fuel injectors cleaned (this winter!), could be a little bit low fuel pressure compared to yours, could be the E10 gasoline I just filled up with (that right there is theoretically a few % difference, if you setup the MAF table using pure gasoline). Regardless, it's close enough that I'm not super concerned.

One other tidbit of information, I saw a peak flow of 201g/s today. I don't remember with certainty, but I think that's the highest number I have recorded, and it's certainly in the ball park of what I would expect to see.


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post #8 of 173 (permalink) Old July 11th, 2018, 20:42 Thread Starter
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I'm smack dab in the middle of corn country. it's pretty much impossible to buy gasoline that isn't 10% ethanol around here unless it is race gas. I tuned this on 93 octane E10 but I'm not pushing the timing envelope so it should still be fine on 89 but i would not take it to 86.

as for the peak flow, it isn't compensated for the fuel trim so if you're seeing 201g/s at +5 trims you're actually closer to 211g/s.

Assuming Alex's testing goes well i will put this up for sale but only 8 units at first until i get more field feedback on those installs before opening it up for everyone.
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post #10 of 173 (permalink) Old July 12th, 2018, 07:47
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I'm smack dab in the middle of corn country. it's pretty much impossible to buy gasoline that isn't 10% ethanol around here unless it is race gas. I tuned this on 93 octane E10 but I'm not pushing the timing envelope so it should still be fine on 89 but i would not take it to 86.

as for the peak flow, it isn't compensated for the fuel trim so if you're seeing 201g/s at +5 trims you're actually closer to 211g/s.

Assuming Alex's testing goes well i will put this up for sale but only 8 units at first until i get more field feedback on those installs before opening it up for everyone.
I suspected as much on the fuel. So, did you actually adjust more than just the MAF table on this tune?

Best I can usually find here is 92, 91 is more common. But I think due to the altitude, less octane is needed. Our low grade is usually 87.

I went ahead and put your MAF sensor in it this morning. I realized that since you sent it, I probably should actually USE it for the dyno test, not just for some fuel trim testing. I have only driven a few miles with it, but it does seem to be running a few % richer than with my sensor.


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There's actually a few other tiny changes on that tune with some of the new stuff i've learned. Nothing that is worth releasing a tune on it's own but this MAF stuff is a good timing to combine this other stuff with it. There is a smidge more timing in there which is why i would not suggest regular anymore. I did not push timing beyond the limits that i discovered when i tuned with the AEM and that tune i specifically did on mid-grade winter fuel which is not great fuel but its a good low bar to shoot for so people don't get knock based on whatever fuel they use. The ECU will protect against any knock anyways, the crappy fuel ignition tables have not been modified.

Good deal on the sensor running richer. What was the part number on your previous sensor?
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Marc, are there any particular parameters that might be helpful for you (for future tune refinement) if I logged them on the dyno? I was planning on logging RPM, AFR (measured and commanded), fuel trims (all 4), MAF, timing advance, and throttle position. Am I missing anything that you would like to see?


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Marc, are there any particular parameters that might be helpful for you (for future tune refinement) if I logged them on the dyno? I was planning on logging RPM, AFR (measured and commanded), fuel trims (all 4), MAF, timing advance, and throttle position. Am I missing anything that you would like to see?
on the throttle please get request and the actual. Absolute load would be nice also since that's what indexes most of the tables we care about.
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on the throttle please get request and the actual. Absolute load would be nice also since that's what indexes most of the tables we care about.
OK, so load is pretty straight forward. I have "Engine Load" and "Engine Load (Absolute)". Will log the later.

Throttle position gets a little more complicated. There are a lot of them. Range is a pedal sweep with the engine off.

Throttle Position (Manifold) (ranges from ~16 to 99 %) (this one seems the most likely to be a good "actual" throttle position)
Relative Throttle Position (range from 0 to 65 %)
Absolute Throttle Position (range from ~50 to 99 %)
Accelerator Pedal Position D (range from 16-76 %)
Accelerator Pedal Position E (range from 32-92 %)

Not exactly clear what they all mean. I can just do all of them, but of course that slows down the poling rate. But at least a dyno pull is slow enough that it wouldn't matter too much.


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Relative Throttle Position is the one i use for the position of the butterfly. I don't know why it maxes out so low but it seems to be the best and easiest to use.
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OK, I will do that one. Any preference on what I grab for a pedal position / throttle request parameter?


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I actually don't remember off the top of my head which one the throttle position is. i think there's one that goes from 8% to about 78% or something like that. but no, as long as you get one of the ones that does the whole sweep (one of them clips at about 80% throttle i think)
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Since it was brought up here and I had wondered for a while to understand why we have more than one, I found this link for reference:

Toyota Sienna Service Manual: Throttle / Pedal Position Sensor / Switch "A" - Diagnostic trouble code chart - Sfi system - 2Gr-fe engine control system - Engine

Interesting since both outputs sweep through their range at different rates and the ECU can determine the actual position... if I read that right. Cool fail-safe. It also seems the same for the pedal as well from what I've found for the VCP and VCP2 notations.

I've always logged off Pedal D since it seemed to match up closer to Throttle Position (Manifold) but I suppose it is all relative...

Eager to see the results
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post #19 of 173 (permalink) Old July 12th, 2018, 18:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouky View Post
My gut says we'll see a 5hp peak increase.
As guesses go, this was a good one!



Peak gains of 5hp, and 11ft-lb of torque. And look at that low end! 15 ft-lb gained at 3000rpm.

Actually there is a bit of a dip in the power curve right at about 6500rpm where the old peak power was. The new peak is 500rpm lower. If you look at either 5500 rpm OR 7200 rpm, the gain is more like 7hp at those points. All four pulls showed basically the same small dip at 6500.

There was one run that actually made 286hp, but the graph had some weird RPM jitter at the top end and I figured this one was effectively the same, but looked better.
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post #20 of 173 (permalink) Old July 12th, 2018, 19:33 Thread Starter
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Alex, First off I'm absolutely thrilled with these results. the dip at peak power is a bit disappointing. You've certainly got me scratching my head over here on that one. in the end a gain of 5-7hp across the board is worth way more than 7hp at the peak only. This should actually be enough to be track for sure.

I've looked at the VVT-I maps and i have no angle changes scheduled between 6200 and 7200RPM. This would certainly be explainable if it only went down but since it rises back up it's certainly odd. I wonder if we're just running into another flow limit on another component of this engine.

I'm going to give it at least a day before making a decision on releasing these new parts for sale in case i can think of something that could affect that little bit at the peak hp mark. Also if you can get me those logs i would really appreciate it.

happy days for sure though. Thank you for your work.
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