MKII, 2GR-FE, and Cruise Control? - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old October 13th, 2009, 22:18 Thread Starter
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MKII, 2GR-FE, and Cruise Control?

I was reviewing some wiring diagrams last night to gauge whether it was going to be possible to have a functional cruise control system after putting a 2GR-FE into my 91 Turbo. Has anyone tackled this task yet? I know many people don't care about cruise, but for long highway drives, I'd prefer to have the option.

After looking at the MR2 and 2GR wiring, it looks like it may not be possible to retain cruise control with this swap easily.

Since the MR2 throttle plate to pedal is cable actuated, there is always a direct connection to the pedal. The MR2 cruise (which is controlled by a separate CC ECU from the main ECU) actuates a remotely located clutched motor assembly which is then connected with another cable to the throttle plate. Essentially this separate motor controls the throttle, while still allowing the driver to accelerate using the pedal if desired.

In the 2GR powered cars the throttle plate is actuated by a DBW motor integral to the throttle body. The cruise control function is integral to the primary ECM on these vehicles. There are inputs to the primary ECM from the skid control ECU, which in turn has the vehicle speed sensors connected to it as an input.

3 Ideas
----------
My first thought to minimize wiring and cutting up of the body harnesses was to retain the MR2's cruise control ECM (which is already integrated to all the necessary switches) and somehow interface its output to the 2GR ECM or throttle actuator. The output of the MR2 CC ECU (pins MO and MC) is a voltage intended to directly drive a small positioning motor (much like the one in the 2GR throttle body actuator), however the 2GR ECM already has direct and full control of this motor. If an external cruise control logic unit was to be used, it would have to "steal" control over the motor in the throttle body and hand it over to the actuation lines of the MR2 CC ECM once the CC circuit was activated by the "SET/RESUME" button. I suppose this could be done with a simple relay circuit (i.e. the signal that normally activates the safety magnetic clutch in the MR2 could be used as the control side to a DPDT relay, effectively switching the TB motor lines over to the MR2's CC motor connections). When the CC gets canceled, the relay would switch back giving the throttle body motor control back to the M+ and M- pins of the 2GR primary ECM. I'm not sure if this would even work, or if it's even remotely possible. Who knows what happens if the 2GR ECM no longer sees the motor attached to it's M+ and M- pins? I suppose the actual position of the throttle plate would also need to be fed back into the MR2's CC ECU for closed-loop operation to work properly... In addition, driver input to the pedal would not be fed through to the throttle while cruise was active. Probably not good things.

Another way I thought CC could be implemented is to source the skid control ECU from the 2GR vehicle and interface its CAN communication lines to the 2GR primary ECM where it would normally expect them. Only question to answer here is if the MR2's vehicle speed sensor(s) would be valid input to the 2GR skid control ECU. If not one would have to source all four vehicle speed sensors from the donor vehicle and make them work somehow.

The last way I could potentially see something working is if it would be possible to interpret the output of the MR2's CC ECM using a logic circuit and convert that signal into something that the 2GR would understand on it's CANH and CANL input pins (A41 and A49), effectively simulating the standard cruise control inputs of the 2GR system for the primary ECM.

OK, that's about as good a guess as I'm going to be able to make regarding the cruise control system for this application. My knowledge of vehicle controls is somewhat limited. If anyone has pondered cruise control in their MKII MR2 powered by a 2GR using the stock ECM, let me know your thoughts! I'd love to get this working.

Last edited by jagibbs; October 13th, 2009 at 22:26.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 06:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagibbs
I was reviewing some wiring diagrams last night to gauge whether it was going to be possible to have a functional cruise control system after putting a 2GR-FE into my 91 Turbo. Has anyone tackled this task yet? I know many people don't care about cruise, but for long highway drives, I'd prefer to have the option.

After looking at the MR2 and 2GR wiring, it looks like it may not be possible to retain cruise control with this swap easily.

Since the MR2 throttle plate to pedal is cable actuated, there is always a direct connection to the pedal. The MR2 cruise (which is controlled by a separate CC ECU from the main ECU) actuates a remotely located clutched motor assembly which is then connected with another cable to the throttle plate. Essentially this separate motor controls the throttle, while still allowing the driver to accelerate using the pedal if desired.

In the 2GR powered cars the throttle plate is actuated by a DBW motor integral to the throttle body. The cruise control function is integral to the primary ECM on these vehicles. There are inputs to the primary ECM from the skid control ECU, which in turn has the vehicle speed sensors connected to it as an input.

3 Ideas
----------
My first thought to minimize wiring and cutting up of the body harnesses was to retain the MR2's cruise control ECM (which is already integrated to all the necessary switches) and somehow interface its output to the 2GR ECM or throttle actuator. The output of the MR2 CC ECU (pins MO and MC) is a voltage intended to directly drive a small positioning motor (much like the one in the 2GR throttle body actuator), however the 2GR ECM already has direct and full control of this motor. If an external cruise control logic unit was to be used, it would have to "steal" control over the motor in the throttle body and hand it over to the actuation lines of the MR2 CC ECM once the CC circuit was activated by the "SET/RESUME" button. I suppose this could be done with a simple relay circuit (i.e. the signal that normally activates the safety magnetic clutch in the MR2 could be used as the control side to a DPDT relay, effectively switching the TB motor lines over to the MR2's CC motor connections). When the CC gets canceled, the relay would switch back giving the throttle body motor control back to the M+ and M- pins of the 2GR primary ECM. I'm not sure if this would even work, or if it's even remotely possible. Who knows what happens if the 2GR ECM no longer sees the motor attached to it's M+ and M- pins? I suppose the actual position of the throttle plate would also need to be fed back into the MR2's CC ECU for closed-loop operation to work properly... In addition, driver input to the pedal would not be fed through to the throttle while cruise was active. Probably not good things.

Another way I thought CC could be implemented is to source the skid control ECU from the 2GR vehicle and interface its CAN communication lines to the 2GR primary ECM where it would normally expect them. Only question to answer here is if the MR2's vehicle speed sensor(s) would be valid input to the 2GR skid control ECU. If not one would have to source all four vehicle speed sensors from the donor vehicle and make them work somehow.

The last way I could potentially see something working is if it would be possible to interpret the output of the MR2's CC ECM using a logic circuit and convert that signal into something that the 2GR would understand on it's CANH and CANL input pins (A41 and A49), effectively simulating the standard cruise control inputs of the 2GR system for the primary ECM.

OK, that's about as good a guess as I'm going to be able to make regarding the cruise control system for this application. My knowledge of vehicle controls is somewhat limited. If anyone has pondered cruise control in their MKII MR2 powered by a 2GR using the stock ECM, let me know your thoughts! I'd love to get this working.
this is on my list of things to try this winter, but here is my thought on this.

the cruise control interface is a single wire from the switch to the ECU. as far as i can tell the mr2 switch resistance is the same as the newer vehicles. so that part should just hook right up.

the other half of the equation is the speed signal to the ECU. the MR2's pulses per mile may or may not be compatible with the 2GR ECU. it doesn't have to be exact or even very close, as long as the pulse shape is correct.

but, i haven't done it yest so i can't make any promises.

*edit* if that dosen't work, you could move the MR2's cruise module to the frunk and rig the cable to pull directly on the gas pedal through the front firewall.

Last edited by Gouky; October 14th, 2009 at 06:19.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 07:42 Thread Starter
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Yes, the switches seem to be of the same design and function, which is good.

By "speed signal to the ECU" do you mean the primary ECM or the skid control ECU? I see the speed sensors in a 2GR setup go to the skid control, not the primary ECM. Are you guessing that the CAN signals are still just some sort of pulse waveform, and that direct connection of the MR2 speed sensor to these inputs of the primary ECM might work?
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 08:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagibbs
Yes, the switches seem to be of the same design and function, which is good.

By "speed signal to the ECU" do you mean the primary ECM or the skid control ECU? I see the speed sensors in a 2GR setup go to the skid control, not the primary ECM. Are you guessing that the CAN signals are still just some sort of pulse waveform, and that direct connection of the MR2 speed sensor to these inputs of the primary ECM might work?
oh, i'll have to check the 2-plug ECU wiring diagram. the 5-plug avalon ecu has an analog speed input.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 08:30
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looks like on the camry, the cluster decodes the can message and sends it to the ECU on pin A8 as an analog waveform. that should be all you need to attach to give the ECU a speed signal
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 13:11
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I've looked deeply into this with my 3MZFE, which is almost exactly how the 2GR's cruize works.
The MR2 speed sensor puts out a square 1/2 wave (pulsating positive) and the 3MZFE ECU needs a sine wave, plus there are two sensors so I don't know which one matters or if both matter. There is an pin on the ECU that could potentially work if Toyota didn't change the backbone that works with it. I don't know it on top of my head but it was from a solara 1MZFE diag, which uses a similar speed sensor to the MR2. Doing it that way is more complicated IMO.

The easiest way I could think of is mecanicaly connecting the drive by wire pedal to the MR2 cruise control actuator and retaining all of the MR2 cruise control system. The only thing that would need to connect and be compatible with the 2GR is the throttle position sensor.

LMK what you guys think

Last edited by k-esd; October 14th, 2009 at 13:17.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 16:47 Thread Starter
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Regarding pulse-train shaping: turning a square wave into a sine wave should be somewhat straightforward (also phase change should be irrelevant), adding an offset (if needed) would be slightly harder, but not out of the question. k-esd, do you know if the square wave is 50% duty cycle (equal on and off times)?

Gouky had also hinted at just retrofitting the existing MR2 CC actuator to the DBW pedal as you are suggesting. I was also thinking at that time that the MR2's TPS would need to be "stacked" inline on the throttle plate beyond what already exists in the 2GR throttle body assembly for this to work.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 17:33
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I believe it is 50% duty cycle according to the document I have.
An other thing worth mentioning is that the signal is a sine wave before it is processed by the circuit built into the speed sensor itself then transmitted as a square wave. If somehow we could tap that, that would save some trouble, if the ECU accepts it.
One thing to test would be to put a wave generator on the speed input of the ECU and watch the OBD2 or CAN reader speed to see which sensor affects the vehicle speed reading. At the same time we can gather data to what hz = which speed.
If we can at least get that going, hopefully the ECU won't be fussy about the rest of the sensors.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 20:12 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouky
looks like on the camry, the cluster decodes the can message and sends it to the ECU on pin A8 as an analog waveform. that should be all you need to attach to give the ECU a speed signal

After looking through the cruise control section of the manual and looking at the Camry and Lexus wiring again, I realized the CAN communication input to the cluster does not play into the pulse train that is sent back out to the primary ECM on pin A8. The only purpose of the CAN lines is to enable the green "cruise" light to come on on the dash. The actual vehicle speed sensor signals come together in the skid control unit, which outputs what is probably an analog signal to the cluster, which then gets modified and sent to pin A8 of the ECM, still as an analog signal. The primary task is to determine what sort of waveform the ECM expects on pin A8 (as already stated). I don't see this information anywhere in the manual.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 20:33 Thread Starter
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I'm going to throw one more tidbit of info I came across tonight out there in case anyone needs to convert a square wave into a sine wave with minimal amplitude variation as frequency varies. From what I can tell looking at the schematic for the 2GR combination meter, this may be the approach Toyota has taken to modify the raw speed sensor signals to a usable form for the ECM on pin A8, as I see some transistors and resistors in their simple schematic.

The following is from:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/e...nverter-2.html

Hi all,
I need a circuit [that] takes a square wave as input and converts it into sine wave. phase difference is acceptable.

1. Make the opamp into a sine wave oscillator. e.g. a "phase shift", "twin-T" or "wein bridge".

2. When you close the feeback loop, don't provide enough feedback for it to freely oscillate (just increase an R if it's a wein bridge).

3. Choose enough feedback for it to "ring" at the oscillator centre frequency.

4. Couple the square wave, to this 'oscillator'. Tight if you want a wider range of frequency, looser if you want lower distortion. The output will be in phase with the sq wave. You'll probably need AGC.

PS. Instead of opamp, if you used just a single transistor (eg as a 'phase-shift-oscillator'), the circuit will be lower parts count, and you'll probably get away without needing AGC (e.g. thermistor). Because a simple common emitter BJT circuit is non-linear and what is "nasty distortion" in audio design, is here a nice 'compression' function to stabilise the sine amplitude.
Hope this helps, I'd done this trick before and it worked for me. I used several of these to clean up a group of sinewave tones received over a radio link.

Last edited by jagibbs; October 14th, 2009 at 20:36. Reason: fixed link
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 21:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagibbs
I'm going to throw one more tidbit of info I came across tonight out there in case anyone needs to convert a square wave into a sine wave with minimal amplitude variation as frequency varies. From what I can tell looking at the schematic for the 2GR combination meter, this may be the approach Toyota has taken to modify the raw speed sensor signals to a usable form for the ECM on pin A8, as I see some transistors and resistors in their simple schematic.

The following is from:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/e...nverter-2.html

Hi all,
I need a circuit [that] takes a square wave as input and converts it into sine wave. phase difference is acceptable.

1. Make the opamp into a sine wave oscillator. e.g. a "phase shift", "twin-T" or "wein bridge".

2. When you close the feeback loop, don't provide enough feedback for it to freely oscillate (just increase an R if it's a wein bridge).

3. Choose enough feedback for it to "ring" at the oscillator centre frequency.

4. Couple the square wave, to this 'oscillator'. Tight if you want a wider range of frequency, looser if you want lower distortion. The output will be in phase with the sq wave. You'll probably need AGC.

PS. Instead of opamp, if you used just a single transistor (eg as a 'phase-shift-oscillator'), the circuit will be lower parts count, and you'll probably get away without needing AGC (e.g. thermistor). Because a simple common emitter BJT circuit is non-linear and what is "nasty distortion" in audio design, is here a nice 'compression' function to stabilise the sine amplitude.
Hope this helps, I'd done this trick before and it worked for me. I used several of these to clean up a group of sinewave tones received over a radio link.
honestly. the ECU is probably just looking at zero crossing points anyways. the wave shape is probably less critical than you think.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old October 19th, 2009, 19:25 Thread Starter
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After more digging around in documents and wiring diagrams...

2GR-FE
======
It looks like the 2GR system (at least in the Lexus ES350) uses the wheel speed sensors for both the ABS and the cruise control. They are similar design as those in the MR2 and connect directly to the ABS/Skid ECU. The ABS/Skid ECU then sends a separate single output (not sure on waveform shape) to the dash combination meter where the signal is further modified into what is most likely a square wave (0 to +12V ?). This square wave then goes to the primary ECM SPD input pin.

MR2 (w/ manual transmission)
======================
It looks like the MR2's use a separate speed sensor for the cruise control than the four sensors at each wheel. This sensor seems to be a 3-wire sensor (+12V, GND, and Signal Output) for manual transmission MR2's, and is likely the sensor mounted to the transmission pickup. The output is a "pulse" for every 40cm of forward vehicle motion, and I'm guessing it's' a square pulse. If it is indeed a square pulse, it may be possible to connect it's output directly to the SPD input pin of the 2GR ECM. The sensors at each wheel are just inductance coils (one at each wheel) that measure about 1 ohm for the fronts and about 1.3k ohms for the rears and are used for the ABS system only.

I wish I had a scope..

Last edited by jagibbs; October 19th, 2009 at 19:28.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old October 19th, 2009, 21:45 Thread Starter
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I've finally found the resistance values of the cruise control switch mounted on the steering wheel and it appears the resistance values are NOT the same in the MR2 as in the newer vehicles (or the Lexus ES350 anyway). This could mean the MR2 switch is not directly compatible with the 2GR ECM without modification. It may be possible to open up the switch and swap out the resistors. Anyone have a spare or damaged MR2 switch they'd like to donate for some development? Below are approximate/average values.

For MR2:
RESUME/ACCEL = 68 Ohms
SET/COAST = 198 Ohms
CANCEL = 418 Ohms
(individual resistor values of 68, 130, and 220 ohms wired in series)


For Lexus ES350:
RESUME/ACCEL = 240 Ohms
SET/COAST = 630 Ohms
CANCEL = 1540 Ohms
(individual resistor values of 240, 390, and 910 ohms, wired in series)

EDIT: I should add that this does not apply to Canadian models, because apparently they use a different switch/ECU combination where there are no resistors in the switch. Each function utilizes a completely separate pin on the ECU where each button press results in a temporary continuity to ground on that particular pin (I like this better).

Last edited by jagibbs; October 19th, 2009 at 22:11.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old October 21st, 2009, 23:01
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Quote:
from Jagibbs e-mail
2GR-FE
======
It looks like the 2GR system (at least in the Lexus ES350) uses the
wheel speed sensors for both the ABS and the cruise control. They
are similar design as those in the MR2 and connect directly to the
ABS/Skid ECU. The ABS/Skid ECU then sends a separate single output
(not sure on waveform shape) to the dash combination meter where the
signal is further modified into what is most likely a square wave.
This square wave then goes to the primary ECM SPD input pin.

MR2
===
It looks like the MR2's use a separate speed sensor for the cruise
control than the four sensors at each wheel. This sensor seems to
be a 3-wire sensor (+12V, GND, and Signal) for manual transmission
MR2's, and is likely the sensor mounted to the transmission pickup.
The output is a pulse for every 40cm of forward vehicle motion, and
I'm guessing it's' a square pulse. If it is indeed a square pulse,
it may be possible to connect it's output directly to the SPD input
pin of the 2GR ECM. The sensors at each wheel are just inductance
coils (one at each wheel) that measure about 1 ohm for the fronts
and about 1.3k ohms for the rears and are used for the ABS system only.
Jagibbs, thanks for the diagram

I see exactly what you are talking about, the speed signal goes from VSC to cluster to junction and splits off to engine and transmission ECUs. A very interesting part was the circuit diagram of the gauge cluster, this shows that the ECUs are looking for a pulsating grounds either square or not (depending of course on the relation between the two transistors). I just looked at my celica diag (same as electric speedo MR2), this one goes to the cluster then to the ECU but I never paid attention to the circuit symbols in the ECU on the diagram, it's a diode pointing against that wire, which means the celica ECU is looking for a pulsating ground. This means the gauge cluster has a circuit that generated a pulsating ground based on the speed signal from the sensor.

So this being said, it should, in theory be as simple as have the electro speedo to gauge cluster then to ECU or from cluster to ECU in the case of cable speedo. If this works, then it's just a matter of the signal giving us a range of speeds we can use and the ECU being happy with no auto tranny. This looks more simple than the 3MZFE retrofit !

It's 1AM, why am I still up? I'm going to bed....
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old October 22nd, 2009, 06:24 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k-esd
snip...

It's 1AM, why am I still up? I'm going to bed....
Wiring diagrams will do that to you...
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old October 22nd, 2009, 20:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagibbs
I've finally found the resistance values of the cruise control switch mounted on the steering wheel and it appears the resistance values are NOT the same in the MR2 as in the newer vehicles (or the Lexus ES350 anyway). This could mean the MR2 switch is not directly compatible with the 2GR ECM without modification. It may be possible to open up the switch and swap out the resistors. Anyone have a spare or damaged MR2 switch they'd like to donate for some development? Below are approximate/average values.

For MR2:
RESUME/ACCEL = 68 Ohms
SET/COAST = 198 Ohms
CANCEL = 418 Ohms
(individual resistor values of 68, 130, and 220 ohms wired in series)


For Lexus ES350:
RESUME/ACCEL = 240 Ohms
SET/COAST = 630 Ohms
CANCEL = 1540 Ohms
(individual resistor values of 240, 390, and 910 ohms, wired in series)

EDIT: I should add that this does not apply to Canadian models, because apparently they use a different switch/ECU combination where there are no resistors in the switch. Each function utilizes a completely separate pin on the ECU where each button press results in a temporary continuity to ground on that particular pin (I like this better).
interesting... it's nice to see someone else doing actual research on the 2GRs.

Personally i'll try swapping out the resistors in the stock MKII switch.
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old October 22nd, 2009, 23:03
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You may find that the newer CC switches will bolt into the MR2 steering wheel with a little trimming here and there. May be easier than changing resistors, depending on if they are SMD or old style.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old October 22nd, 2009, 23:09 Thread Starter
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I thought of looking into sourcing the newer CC switch, but don't have access to used parts very easily. I might rather open up the switch I already have. I'm pretty good at removing and soldering even SMD resistors in those really small 1206...and smaller sizes..

Gouky, are you suggesting that you will actually try to swap the resistors, or were you just giving your opinion? My MAIN worry is still what to use as the input to the SPD terminal, although I'm holding out that the sender in the mechanical transaxle sender unit may be compatible with the 2GR SPD input pin.
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old October 23rd, 2009, 06:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagibbs
I thought of looking into sourcing the newer CC switch, but don't have access to used parts very easily. I might rather open up the switch I already have. I'm pretty good at removing and soldering even SMD resistors in those really small 1206...and smaller sizes..

Gouky, are you suggesting that you will actually try to swap the resistors, or were you just giving your opinion? My MAIN worry is still what to use as the input to the SPD terminal, although I'm holding out that the sender in the mechanical transaxle sender unit may be compatible with the 2GR SPD input pin.
I will try swapping the resistors this winter. I design electronics for a living and i'm not worried about any surface mount electronics. even if they are 0201's

i'm fairly certain the speed input will be compatible.
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 2019, 23:18
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Zombie Thread Alert: so did anyone ever get their cruise control to work?
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