MSRP for 2012 Toyota MR2 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 10:34 Thread Starter
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MSRP for 2012 Toyota MR2

I just threw together some numbers...
1985 Camry LE MSRP $11,444
1985 MR2 (NA) MSRP $12,198
1995 Camry XLE MSRP $24,795
1995 MR2 (NA) MSRP $25,828
2005 Camry XLE MSRP $26,095
2005 Spyder (NA) MSRP $25,685
So extrapolating
2012 Camry XLE MSRP $29,845
2012 MR2 NA range should be $28,000-30,000 (since the MR2 base should be within $1,000 of the top Camry).
Thoughts?
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 10:37 Thread Starter
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Anybody want to dig around and post the variations in power to weight of the top camry to the base MR2 over those same years? Maybe we can develop a chart to predict what the MR2 should be...
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 10:48
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That would be totally skewed by the fast that the number of safety regulations has skyrocketed, which has sent car weights sky high, and with Toyota making hybrid technology mandatory in a car like the next gen MR2, weights are going to be way up there.

Unless with the move to 1.0 - 1.4 liter engine technology they would use the MR2 as a tool to show how the smaller engines with hybrid technology could be fun...

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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 13:07 Thread Starter
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I don't think so.
1985 Camry 2300lbs and 91 hp, or 25lb/hp
1995 Camry 3131 lbs and 188 hp, or 16.65 lb/hp
2005 Camry 3241 lbs and 210 hp, or 15.43 lb/hp
2012 Camry 3395 lbs and 268 hp, or 12.66 lb/hp

1985 mr2 2350lbs and 112 hp, or 20.98 lb/hp
1995 mr2 2599lbs and 135 hp, or 19.25 lb/hp
2005 mr2 2195lbs and 138 hp, or 15.91 lb/hp
2012 mr2 ?lbs and ? hp for 13.5lbs per hp

I vote for 2025 lbs and 150 hp, with high efficiency, but if it was "piggy" and gained weight like the MKII it could be @2800 lbs and @200hp. Thats ounds suspiciously like the numbers of a currently forthcoming product from a Toyota brand... (@2600 lbs and @195 hp for a total of 13.33 lb/hp)
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 13:10 Thread Starter
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If you used the ratio of 1995 NA to 1995 turbo power to weight, there would be a premium MR2 in 2012 that would have a power to weight ratio of around 11lb/hp.
Think of 2800lbs and 255 hp.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2012, 13:15 Thread Starter
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So based on past results, which are no indication of future performance, if Toyota released a 2013 MR2, it would be just under $30,000, weigh 2600 lbs and have 200 hp. In addition, all the owners of the previous generations of MR2s should immediately hate it and call it a fake, a poser and a failure to "maintain the tradition".
Is it just me or does this sound like a product that will in fact be released by Toyota within the next 7 months?
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 05:51
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Not mid engine, not MR2. Entire principle of the mr2 is to take a parts bin FF and use it to drive the rear wheels.

RWD N/a WRX does =/= MR2

If you want to call the FT86/Scion FR-S/Subaru BR-Z/whatever they are calling it - a replacement or new anything, it's a subie powered, mroe sleek, less luxury oriented is200 lol.

Aside from the nod to the FT86 being a new MR2, you made some intelligent and enjoyable deductions on the price, power, and weight of what we would see as a new mr2 if it were ever to be concieved as a production model again.
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 05:57 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulholland
Aside from the nod to the FT86 being a new MR2, you made some intelligent and enjoyable deductions on the price, power, and weight of what we would see as a new mr2 if it were ever to be concieved as a production model again.
I never said it was, you did.
I asked a questions and you jumped to a conclusion. Clearly you see a similarity, or you would not have made that jump.
I do not think that it is a replacement for the MR2. It does however check all the boxes that a new MR2 would, including angering all of the "faithful". That is something I find interesting.
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 07:29
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Originally Posted by mr2by4
I never said it was, you did.
I asked a questions and you jumped to a conclusion. Clearly you see a similarity, or you would not have made that jump.
I do not think that it is a replacement for the MR2. It does however check all the boxes that a new MR2 would, including angering all of the "faithful". That is something I find interesting.
2 things... you asked if it sounds similar to anyting else Toyota is about to put out, and I am pretty sure it was you who has been on the whole "FT86=new MR2" tyrade and I have argued back and forth over already.

So don't try to be coy and say I thought of it all by myself. You blatantly implied it. I see no similarity between an mr2 and the "FT-86" other than both being affordable parts bin cars with sporting natures, psuedo sports cars.

So by that logic, the FT86 is the new Supra too. Oh and Subaru made it tooo so it's also the new Impreza WRX STi.

That logic is flawed. It is neither MR now AWD, and therefore cannot be either MR2 or STi obviously. It's an entirely new platform, at leats with a toyota or scion badge. The conclusion I gave is that if anyting it's a more sleek and young/sporty/American and European version of the IS200 with a lower price tag, no Lexus name, and less luxury.

Let's not get moronic over this... I paid you a compliment for the intelligent deductions you made, and intended to continue down that path of though if anything, not open up the can of worms over FT86=/=MR2 and would be "front-midships". Please return to a constructive forward moving area of thought rather than reverting to annoying circular arguments and poor logic.
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 07:55 Thread Starter
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Since you seem to have me confused with someone else, I will play along.
By what logic is the FRS anything like the new Supra? The body configuration (ok)
By what logic is it the new WRX STI? Not 4 door, not 4wd, not turbo, so there you fail.
I like that you want to fight about a conclusion you also drew form an observation I made. If you were old enough to recall the response to the 2nd and 3rd gen releases (though there was a lot less internet to "buzz" with the release of the MKII), you would know what I was talking about. I am sure that you read car magazines when you were 12, but they did not feature much of the negative response to the MRS( aka "Misses"), as it was called prior to its release. I am just bemused with how history repeats itself, and you have obliged by sharing the visceral response of people who don't know any better than to respond to facts with emotion.
The facts to which I refer are that dollar for dollar and lb/hp the FRS is no better or worse of a sports car than any generation of the MR2 has been. This is not a response to questions of why it was made practical with a rear seat, or any of that nonsense, just a counter point to complaints of its cost and power to weight. If you want a ray of hope, it was about 2 years after the AE86 arrived that the AW11 showed up with similar power, weight and price. Maybe there will be another MR2 in the future, and when it comes out you can complain how it fails to live up to your expectations/ the lineage of the MR2 as well.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 09:07 Thread Starter
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For the record, I think that the MK1.5 with a gen3 should set the bench mark for the next MR2. It should be 2500 lbs and 260hp, with some semblence of a trunk on one or boths ends. I will forgive them the cost differential from the cost to buy my MK1.5 if it has some creature comforts and a warranty!
I wonder how many people really would (and could) pay $30k for just such a car?
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 10:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2by4
For the record, I think that the MK1.5 with a gen3 should set the bench mark for the next MR2. It should be 2500 lbs and 260hp, with some semblence of a trunk on one or boths ends. I will forgive them the cost differential from the cost to buy my MK1.5 if it has some creature comforts and a warranty!
I wonder how many people really would (and could) pay $30k for just such a car?
None, because such a car would cost $40k. You're talking very modern construction and composited to hit 2500lbs at a reasonable size with all the air bags and extra junk wiring and computers, and 260hp wouldn't come cheaply under warranty in a light weight package either. What'd base c6's cost at launch? lol What do base boxster cost? Hell, how much is a loaded mx-5 miata right now? There's a yard stickfor you... that, plus mid engine exotic-ness and 100hp = $$$. It would definitely ballpark in the rx8/370z bracket... the FR-S/BR-Z is suposed to weight in at close to 2800lb probably, and has 200hp,and will be almost every bit of $30k signed and dotted, not that manufacturers prics are based on power/weight ratio, but you get the idea. The mr2 would be a higher caliber of car than the FR-S/BR-Z and therefor more costly.

Last edited by Mulholland; February 1st, 2012 at 10:43.
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 12:07
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Why would getting 260hp stock be expensive, heavy, or warranty voiding? The 2gr makes more than that and can be put in any mr2. If we can jam it in old cars not designed for them, why can't an all new car have it?
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 14:56 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulholland
None, because such a car would cost $40k. You're talking very modern construction and composited to hit 2500lbs at a reasonable size with all the air bags and extra junk wiring and computers, and 260hp wouldn't come cheaply under warranty in a light weight package either.
Every generation of MR2 has been priced comparable to the top Camry. That is true in 85, 95 and 2005. There is no reason why you could not do the same thing today. MKIIIs were the lightest MR2 and had the most safety features. You can argue with me if you want, but based on history, there is no reason why Toyota could not do this. They could use the base Camry 4 cyclinder in a base model at $30K and the Camry v6 in a premium edition for $7500 more (per the price differential in the Camry line). Since there is less interior to "premium up",the up sell could include brakes, suspension etc.
This would be priced in Line with the 370z line etc and there is no reason why it could not be done.

I am curious if it is possible that there are people mad about Toyota releasing a new sportscar because they can't afford it and this angers them. I can' figure out why else people would be so angry about adding a sports focused vehicle to the line. I hope that it is succesful and that it encourages Toyota to bring back a Supra and an MR2.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2012, 23:47
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Toyota has no corporate interest in low-production, minimal-profit sportscars, really. It's a miracle that the GT86 is even happening!

As a company, modern Toyota has no soul. They are the Japanese General Motors. They do not care about the past (except when it suits their advertising purposes) and only care about motorsport and "fun" driving insofar as it helps them sell more Camry SEs and RAV4 Sports for premium prices and no performance benefits.

Toyota could easily duplicate their 1980s/1990s sports coupe lineups with off-the shelf, already-smog-certified hardware and safety-proven platforms in production today.

Celica: Scion tC/Camry.. AWD hardware exists in the Rav4, which uses the same 2.5L 4-cyl as the Camry/tC.

RWD Corolla: Meh, they hack-jobbed their way into it with the GT86. Kinda of neat though!

MR2: Camry engines in the back of Camrys, as written above. Use suspension/brake parts from the IS250/350.

Supra: IS chassis again is perfect along with proven RWD drivetrains, transmissions and a choice of V6s as well as a 5.0L performance V8. A 2-door IS-based coupe with the IS-F V8 at a price point lower than the IS-F is entirely feasible.


If we can sell $65,000 Sequoia Limiteds, $55,000 Tundra Limiteds and $50,000 Avalons along with $45,000 4Runners and $35,000 Camrys, there's no reason why they couldn't do any of the above.

Exceeeeept this one: They just don't care. The dollar is sacred and power is God. That is what Toyota of the 21st century is all about, friends.
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old February 2nd, 2012, 00:08
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[QUOTE=mr2by4]Every generation of MR2 has been priced comparable to the top Camry.QUOTE]


Yes, and I agreed wholy with you when you had cost/weight/power figures based off of those figures. Then you threw them out and said how much you'd love a 2500lb 260hp MR2 for $30k which wasn't based on the same deduced figures but made up power/weight so I added a matching number to your new dream MR2 remodel.

Try to keep up with your own logic
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old February 12th, 2012, 02:41
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I did a few minutes of basic statistical analysis of your numbers for everyone to compare, but I can't be arsed to find the info on the top end MR2 models of each gen to compare to Camry's. :P Just added a couple hundred pounds to the base 2012 MR2 to compensate for top end model's additional options.

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old February 12th, 2012, 02:48
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I did a few minutes of basic statistical analysis of your numbers for everyone to compare, but I can't be arsed to find the info on the top end MR2 models of each gen to compare to Camry's. :P Just added a couple hundred pounds to the base 2012 MR2 to compensate for top end model's additional options.

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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old February 12th, 2012, 06:47
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One day I will figure out what Conor means when he talks about a car's soul.
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old February 13th, 2012, 00:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulholland
2 things... you asked if it sounds similar to anyting else Toyota is about to put out, and I am pretty sure it was you who has been on the whole "FT86=new MR2" tyrade and I have argued back and forth over already.

I see no similarity between an mr2 and the "FT-86" other than both being affordable parts bin cars with sporting natures, psuedo sports cars.

So by that logic, the FT86 is the new Supra too. Oh and Subaru made it tooo so it's also the new Impreza WRX STi.

That logic is flawed. It is neither MR now AWD, and therefore cannot be either MR2 or STi obviously. It's an entirely new platform, at leats with a toyota or scion badge. The conclusion I gave is that if anyting it's a more sleek and young/sporty/American and European version of the IS200 with a lower price tag, no Lexus name, and less luxury.

Let's not get moronic over this... I paid you a compliment for the intelligent deductions you made, and intended to continue down that path of though if anything, not open up the can of worms over FT86=/=MR2 and would be "front-midships". Please return to a constructive forward moving area of thought rather than reverting to annoying circular arguments and poor logic.
I was I that you are referring too. Your points are baseless. The "parts bin" is a HUGE part of what makes the mr2 so good for the $. IS200 (there is one), Supra (way too small to be one, but I could almost see doing a Supra version similar to the old celica supras) and the STI (they have said there will be an STI version, but it vastly different compared to the WRX, more like alltrac to mr2) are all terrible in relation. See, you see the placement of the engine as some end all for being the mr2, but you fail to see that the engine is set so far back that it's closer to being mid engined. The ft86 is a mix of AE86 and the mr2, but better than both. By pushing the engine back and down, it is more centered to the chassis and has a lower COG than either the AE86 or the mr2. There are many people looking at going from mr2 to FRS/BRZ because of the similar size, cost, rwd, etc. There are many similarities and the fact that you overlook all of them because the engine is infront of the driver says that people are really close minded. Remember that the Celica went from rwd to fwd/awd and produced a Supra. Things change and evolve. I would have liked to see a better F to R ratio on the FRS, but the low COG will help.

I don't think the idea is moronic, nor using circular logic. The fact remains, that the ONLY real difference is that the engine sits under the dash and you gained seats with a bigger trunk! No matter how you look at it, a new mr2 would be at a minimum a competitor in the same market.

Conor, while I agree with you mostly, I do think Akio Toyoda will help the company change that. There is now going to be "F" variants of multiple lexus's, a LFA and now a gt86.
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