Timing Advance for E85 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #1 of 4 (permalink) Old February 26th, 2019, 16:32 Thread Starter
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Timing Advance for E85

I'm looking for pre-dyno advice. I'm installing a 3 port EBC here soon, and I want to test it before I get to the dyno. I'm a dyno virgin so I don't know what to expect.

I have a good base/street tune started. Starts up, drives, does good in traffic, and is overall pretty fast. I'm not sure if it is safe to see 20psi though (its probably super conservative). I want to see what timing everyone else is running for E85 in the 10-20psi range on midsize turbos ~GT3071R

I'm also interested in the scaling everyone uses for timing. Do yall use more resolution in boost or below atmosphere? I figure I could pull my 90KPA row out and add another row up top should I want to see 25+psi.

Go fast parts for the interested:
ATS 2.2 5SGTE
ATS Head
BC Racing 264 Cams +4I -8E
BW S252
ID1000s
Walbaro 400
MSPNP2


My current timing map attached:
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File Type: jpg Timing Map 5SGTE.jpg (148.0 KB, 7 views)
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post #2 of 4 (permalink) Old February 26th, 2019, 19:32
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I'm not on E85 but running WI with 50/50 meth/water. I've played around with my fuel and ignition tables a tad and on the dyno twice. Can't really comment on your table without having mine open in front of me. The Dyno Technician should be able to advise the best changes once engine has done a couple of pulls to determine AFR and knock control. A couple of things I'd consider before getting into Tuning shop as it will help dial things in and allow you to carry on with street tune;

1/ Install a decent wideband O2 and use input into MS.
2/ Ensure you have VEAL to autotune VE tables. May need to 'teach' Tuner to use.
3/ Enable knock control and become familiar with setting up on board (will be tricky).
4/ Enable sequensial fueling and add 2-5% more fuel for cyl 2 & 3 above 200KPA.
5/ Become familiar with data logging as this is a great tool to diagnois your tune.

I could go into details but read the manual and become familiar on how to do. Many owners think that after they leave the dyno they will not have to touch the EMS again. This is far from the truth as minor tweeking is required for many months if not years. Using data log will really help you later on with tuning as well as understanding what your engine requires.

jim
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post #3 of 4 (permalink) Old February 27th, 2019, 00:08 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by benckj View Post
I'm not on E85 but running WI with 50/50 meth/water. I've played around with my fuel and ignition tables a tad and on the dyno twice. Can't really comment on your table without having mine open in front of me. The Dyno Technician should be able to advise the best changes once engine has done a couple of pulls to determine AFR and knock control. A couple of things I'd consider before getting into Tuning shop as it will help dial things in and allow you to carry on with street tune;

1/ Install a decent wideband O2 and use input into MS. AEM, Done
2/ Ensure you have VEAL to autotune VE tables. May need to 'teach' Tuner to use. VE tables are currently dialed in and will be fixed with timing changes, Done
3/ Enable knock control and become familiar with setting up on board (will be tricky). I've tried, but just setup "detcan" headphones instead. The knock sensing requires dyno time to set right (IMHO)
4/ Enable sequensial fueling and add 2-5% more fuel for cyl 2 & 3 above 200KPA. Have not done this - good idea - I'm assuming it mostly applies to the stock intake mani?
5/ Become familiar with data logging as this is a great tool to diagnois your tune. Done

I could go into details but read the manual and become familiar on how to do. Many owners think that after they leave the dyno they will not have to touch the EMS again. This is far from the truth as minor tweeking is required for many months if not years. Using data log will really help you later on with tuning as well as understanding what your engine requires. I've already got the car tuned in both cold and warm temps, cold start and hot start. Have not messed with barometric pressure, because it probably wont ever leave 100 feet above sea level

jim
It is my understanding (knowledge from the supra forums) that E85 timing should be in the +20* range while at high RPM - even at high boost (which is currently at like... 9*). Also as RPM increases, timing should increase across the KPA row because of piston speed. I've also been told that E85 for the most part "doesn't knock". I still want to hear it first hand from another 3S/5S tuner that setting it that high will be safe, before I throw massive amounts of boost at it. I'd imagine I'll probably bump it up 2-3 degrees at a time, let VEAL compensate on the VE table after each pull, and make sure I don't max out the injectors.
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post #4 of 4 (permalink) Old March 14th, 2019, 20:34
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Your AFR shouldn't change at all with timing changes...

I've found E85 to generally like about 2-5 degrees more timing than MBT on 93. 20 degrees of timing with tons of boost sounds a bit nutty to me. Sure, it won't knock on E85, but you'll also bend rods. Seen lots of Evo builds bend rods with clueless tuners that just roll in a ton of timing on E85 "waiting for it to knock." It doesn't knock... but it definitely bends a rod eventually!


It's best to dial in E85 timing on a dyno to hit MBT. If you don't have that, don't go crazy with it, but you can pass MBT and never get any knock like you'll typically get with pump gas to inform you to back off a hair.
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