3sgte Stock Ignition Timing Maps - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old September 8th, 2012, 17:59 Thread Starter
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3sgte Stock Ignition Timing Maps

I did a bit of research and found what appears to be a stock 3sgte ignition timing map. I thought it would be useful as a reference point for anyone trying to analyze their own ignition map, as well to spur up some discussion on ignition timing tuning. Keep in mind that the load is based on AFM signal, not map, and that the top of the graph shows less load and the bottom is more load.





There was also an interesting thread posted a while back by ATSAaron who posted a youtube video of the ignition timing under boost, of the stock ecu. I took the data from that video and plotted it into a graph. As you can see, it is similar to the above ignition map. Here is the original thread: https://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=425916


Last edited by lagos; September 8th, 2012 at 18:07.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2012, 10:27
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Wow, that's very interesting information. Since that is from a JDM motor, is that timing map more agressive than the American ECU? Also, while this ign map and the datalog that Aaron provided do look similar, why did the datalog show a dip down to 15 at 4025, was it due to knock response, because it was higher boost, or Gen3? Also, note that on the datalog, ignition timing was 14 at idle (~850rpm) while this map shows high 20's. Could that be due to different emission regs?

And I have to wonder -- would it be sensible to use this ignition map as a starting point for an EMS, assuming a stockish motor? Just doing a quick comparison of that map vs. the base map that came with my MSPNP, the stock JDM ignition map looks, in general, more agressive. I figure that's because DIY backed it off pretty good for safey. Also, I notice the MSPNP base map reaches max timing at about 4500RPM whereas this stock map, and the datalog from Aaron really pour the timing back on in the higher RPMs. Again, I assume that was for safety sake, but it looks like I would be able to safely start bumping up the timing in those higher RPMs to get some of my top-end back. (the J&S should cover my back )
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2012, 11:46 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitBull
Wow, that's very interesting information. Since that is from a JDM motor, is that timing map more agressive than the American ECU? Also, while this ign map and the datalog that Aaron provided do look similar, why did the datalog show a dip down to 15 at 4025, was it due to knock response, because it was higher boost, or Gen3? Also, note that on the datalog, ignition timing was 14 at idle (~850rpm) while this map shows high 20's. Could that be due to different emission regs?

And I have to wonder -- would it be sensible to use this ignition map as a starting point for an EMS, assuming a stockish motor? Just doing a quick comparison of that map vs. the base map that came with my MSPNP, the stock JDM ignition map looks, in general, more agressive. I figure that's because DIY backed it off pretty good for safey. Also, I notice the MSPNP base map reaches max timing at about 4500RPM whereas this stock map, and the datalog from Aaron really pour the timing back on in the higher RPMs. Again, I assume that was for safety sake, but it looks like I would be able to safely start bumping up the timing in those higher RPMs to get some of my top-end back. (the J&S should cover my back )


There are a few things that would account for the differences. One being that the map is from the st185 while the datalog is from the mr2. While I believe both are 2nd gens and have a JDM ecu, it has been posted in the past that the Celica and MR2 are tuned differently. You also have to remember that the ecu can change the amount of timing run based on knock sensor input, and I think in aarons runs, he did trip the knock sensor a few times. Also normally 4k is peak torque range for the engine, and you would want to tune less timing in that region.

Whats really interesting is how both the map and data log show huge amounts of ignition timing being run in the upper rpm range. A lot more than the MSPNP is running.

I found a few more "tuner" 3sgte ignition maps that people have posted online that I can post later on tonight. Its just really important to point out that no one should just copy these and use them, especially without proper knock protection being used. These things really need to be dialed in on the dyno, but it doesn't hurt to look at what others have done and try to learn something from it.

Last edited by lagos; September 9th, 2012 at 11:51.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2012, 18:52
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I've seen at least one other MR2 ignition map posted where they put lots of timing back in after 4500. I have to figure for the MSPNP they left it out for safety.

I used this ignition map you posted here as a guide and have been tweaking mine. In particular, I've added in some timing both before and after the 4000-4500 range. Previously it'd really fall flat in the upper RPMs but now it continues to pull much better.

I realize a dyno is necessary for the best tune, but I hope to get it pretty close. I got the J&S for safety and figure as long as I only tweak the timing a bit each time, that should (hopefully) provide adequate protection.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2012, 19:05
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God i wanna get one of those J&S setups. I really dont want to mess with the timing either until i can accurately gauge knock. I bet theres at least another 10whp out there up top with a little more aggressive tune.

Just found out yesterday that after i start a for sale thread in the classifieds i'll have more than enough moneys to invest in either a top of the line water/meth kit from one of the more reputable companies or a used J&S setup. Problem with using that kit is that i'll really have no idea how to blend it in/sync it all up with the MSPNP, so pitbull, when you've got your setup all working with the J&S, i'd LOVE to know what you had to do to get to that point.

Given that i'll be running only 93oct (no e85 or race gas for me) ill be at the mercy of the water/meth and J&S as far as increasing the boost.

I wonder how much boost pressure the stock head gasket/hardware can handle.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 09:50 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitBull
I've seen at least one other MR2 ignition map posted where they put lots of timing back in after 4500. I have to figure for the MSPNP they left it out for safety.
.

Its possible that the timing was pulled for that reason, but there is one thing that I am confused about. I keep reading that not enough timing can cause very high egt's. So wouldn't this in turn make things less safe and more knock prone? Or is the "not enough timing" referring to extreme situations.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 09:56
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We tuned that map to what sidewayssw20's car was running on well. It could be his particular turbo setup meant it didn't need the extra timing at the top end.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 10:03 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer
We tuned that map to what sidewayssw20's car was running on well. It could be his particular turbo setup meant it didn't need the extra timing at the top end.

Yes, its worth pointing out that these stock maps are for a car running a stock ct26, not an upgraded ct20b or ct27 that flows more up top like sideways (and what most of us upgraded to from stock) car has. The stock ct26 is known for dropping off quickly after 5,000 rpm and this is probably the reason why so much timing is run in that area.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 11:37
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I'd personally recommend getting the J&S before the water/meth kit just because I don't think you'll be able to get as much out of the meth w/o the safety of the J&S. At least, not without taking greater risks.

As for setting the J&S up with the MSPNP, I didn't have to do anything. Before I even got the MS, Matt told me it'd "just work", same as it did with the OEM ECU. As far as I can tell, it is.

If you're watching ebay, make sure you know what model you're getting because I think they made a lot of different variations over the years for special applications. For example, I bought mine on ebay and thought it was a good deal, but it was a model that wasn't quite the universal one that the docs refer to. I contacted J&S and he was kind enough to try and help me, but even he couldn't quite determine what I had, based on my description of it. In the end I had to experiment with the dip switches and wiring until I got it working right.

As for the boost pressure question, I'm sure there are many threads where you can find people asking that very question (and getting a variety of answers)

Personally, at this point I have my MBC set for 19psi. I have the AEM progressive controller (not the best, I know) and I start injecting at about 9 psi boost with max set for ~15psi. I went so far as to verify that setting by connecting a vac/press tester to the AEM's MAP sensor and pumping it up while holding the nozzle in my hand. I am using the largest nozzle that came with the AEM kit. They state it is 550cc. I plan on buying one of those super-atomization nozzles from Coolingmist, in a slightly larger size.

So far I have been ever so slowly pulling fuel out of the map. I have not yet tried adding in any additional timing -- that will come later.

At some point I'll start a thread with a better explaination of my setup.

Last edited by PitBull; September 10th, 2012 at 11:47.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 11:53
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Good idea. Yeah that makes sense to get the J&S first. I look forward to your thread regarding this. Sounds like my setup will have alot in common with yours.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2012, 19:39 Thread Starter
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Isn't megasquirt 3 supposed to have knock protection along the lines of JS knock guard?
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2012, 08:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagos
Isn't megasquirt 3 supposed to have knock protection along the lines of JS knock guard?
It has some much improved knock detection. We only had the budget to run a destructive test on one engine to try it out, though, so it's tough to say just how good this one is across the board. (Blew up a GA16DE powered Sentra, in case you were wondering.)
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2012, 10:04 Thread Starter
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It has some much improved knock detection. We only had the budget to run a destructive test on one engine to try it out, though, so it's tough to say just how good this one is across the board. (Blew up a GA16DE powered Sentra, in case you were wondering.)

Do you have any links to reference exactly how its improved? Id like to read up on it but couldn't find too much detail. Also, does the new knock detection come in the assembled ms3 kits, or do you have to add on optional components. I noticed an addon knock board for sale on your site.

Last edited by lagos; September 11th, 2012 at 10:57.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2012, 13:38
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It's an add on option, and is covered under "internal variable module" at this link.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignit...ngs.html#knock

The module allows you to specify a crank angle window to listen to knock and lets you specify a band pass filter frequency along with a threshold level that you can adjust with RPM. You can also specify different threshold levels per cylinder or run two knock sensors and pair each sensor with specific cylinders.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2012, 14:45 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer
It's an add on option, and is covered under "internal variable module" at this link.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignit...ngs.html#knock

The module allows you to specify a crank angle window to listen to knock and lets you specify a band pass filter frequency along with a threshold level that you can adjust with RPM. You can also specify different threshold levels per cylinder or run two knock sensors and pair each sensor with specific cylinders.

And without the addon board, you still get basic knock functionality like in the mspnp?
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2012, 08:43
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A standard MS3 does not have a built in knock conditioner, but could use a GM knock module or KnockSenseMS. The MSPNP has its own knock circuit that was meant to be an improvement over other existing MegaSquirt knock detection circuits that were around at the time, but is not at the same level as the MS3 add on board.
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