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Old February 8th, 2011, 14:17   #1
Gandalf
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Here goes my 350 WHP on pump gas project!

The goal is to build a 350 whp 3sgte with stock bottom end, on pump gas. I already know it won't be a quick build-up, because my projects never are lol, but, I see them through. Virtually all the parts have arrived woot!

I have been in school since 2003, finally finishing up this year, so this project is a little reward to myself. It has been tremendously fun to drive this car at 250 whp for the past seven years, but the time has come. I also tend to find alternative solutions rather than just forking over cash at every turn, so if I get bitten by an urge to make something as opposed to buying it, I usually go the creative route. I often use scrapyard materials. Something I am very excited about is finally making one of my ?dream? purchases, a new Everlast inverter TIG welder, which is being put to excellent use.

Going beyond 300 whp is a leap because it requires replacing many major stock components. I buy/build for more power than my goals because it aids in longevity, leaves room for future growth, and saves money. This build has the potential for much more than 350 whp? I am still on stock internals and clutch, and so I will respect those limitations for this goal, and upgrade as necessary.

My introduction to the 3sgte engine began with the install of a JDM gen II 3sgte by Carl Crawford in 2002-2003, making the car one of the first MKI.5?s. The details here will not be about the MKI.5 install/swap, but about the 3sgte power-buildup.

The car has been running nicely on the following power modifications for the past eight years:

-GT3040 turbo and custom Speed-Source turbo manifold
-Tial 40mm wastegate
-Walbro 255 in-tank
-Tial BOV
-Profec B boost controller.
-cold-air intake through the trunk

I have been making modifications along the way as time and budget allowed. They include:

-completing my A2W buildup a few years back:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?...ht=monster+A2W
-adding an MSD 6a Ignition
-CRW axle/bearing/boot kit I won at the BCMR2 meet in 2008.
-oil filter relocation with Tundra filter to increase capacity and cooling.
-Magnaflow muffler and custom center-exit tip http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?...r-exit+exhaust
-many non-engine/power related modifications

This is how the engine bay layout currently looks:


Here is what is in the works to finish this build:
-Honda P06 ecu, run on software still to be determined. Using the Honda ecu will require using a Honda distributor at the moment? both of these parts are here ready to go (thanks scarecrowX!).
-Aeromotive FPR with Viton o-rings to seal the injectors to the head (thanks Carl Crawford and Speed-Source!)
-1050cc/min 7mgte injectors from FIC. They are all rated between 1080 and 1077 cc/min @ 43.5 psi.
-3sgelc fuel rail, which happily arrived as a bonus with the 3sgelc intake manifold I located. I will wait to buy/make custom fuel lines until I decide where everything will be located.
-keeping the TVIS and controlling its opening point. I want to figure out a way to control the opening rate of the TVIS as well, since I think gains can be had by having it directly proportional to RPM from 3700 to 5200 RPM
-my own design for a side-feed intake manifold, utilizing the 3sgelc (8 slanted) runners. The completion of the IM portion of the build can be followed here:
Part I http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=366346&page=1
Part II http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=407616
-3sge cams (I came across a jspec 1990 MR2 3sge in a junkyard, rare here in Canada)
-ATS adjustable cam gears (oem gears also plucked from the same donor 3sge car)? They will get a clear cover, so these will be nicely visible! (It has arrived, thanks Rob!)

I have collected scrapyard aluminum tubing with the following inside diameters: 2.5?, 2 9/16?, 2 11/16?, 2 ??, 2 7/8?, 3?, 3 1/8?, 3 5/16?, 3 3/8?, 3 11/16?, 3 ??, 4?, 4.25?, 4.5?, 4.75?, 5?, 5.25? 5 ??. Also, aluminum expanders/reducers, sheet and plate. I will also add some quality stainless. From it, the following can be made:

-new 4? aluminum intake piping. Since I am pulling cold air from a custom vent in my trunk, I want to make it as unrestrictive as space will allow.
-turbo/IC aluminum piping which will expand to meet with the 80mm (3 1/8?) inlet of the throttle-body and to the intake manifold itself. Since bends tend to add restriction, they will be kept smooth and gradual, as will the expansions to help avoid turbulence.
-relocated 70mm BBK throttle body (modified by ATS with correct TPS), which will allow for smoother airflow into the intake manifold at all throttle positions. It will likely be between the turbo and the IC, right after the BOV.
-New stainless downpipe (plus wastegate dump tube) and aluminum exhaust. Probably 3 1/8? ? 4? diameter, I am making the muffler from aluminum as well, since I want a particular exhaust tip ?D?-shape. I am really looking forward to the actual making and welding of all this piping.

While I am at it, I will:
-replace the water pump/belt
-install racerx1715?s aluminum alternator mount and tensioners to support the intake manifold and turbo.

Any thoughts, suggestions, brainstorming, critiques, and discussion are welcome.

Last edited by Gandalf; June 14th, 2012 at 00:53.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 14:24   #2
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Muffler

I have begun work on the aluminum exhaust system. I want to improve flow and noise reduction? the car sounds great with the current Magnaflow, but I think I can design a muffler that outflows and is quieter. It is longer than most aftermarket mufflers for the 3sgte, and a different shape. The D-shape tip is 4? I.D. and will fill the center-exit exhaust location nicely.

The muffler is 4? inlet/outlet I.D., and 4? perforated aluminum with a curve. Perforated aluminum is not easy to weld, lol.





Try to imagine the new tip properly shaped and polished in this location:


Last edited by Gandalf; June 14th, 2012 at 00:56.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 14:30   #3
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this is relevant to my interests.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 15:53   #4
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That center exit exhaust looks terrible, imo.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 16:20   #5
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I rather like it. Good luck with the build buddy.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 17:13   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
-3sge cams
Don't waste your time with those. They will never make 350whp on pump gas.

Check Dracon's build from two years ago. We got 370-380whp out of his car (with a smaller turbo). Follow him.

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Old February 8th, 2011, 18:16   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATSAaron
Don't waste your time with those. They will never make 350whp on pump gas.

Check Dracon's build from two years ago. We got 370-380whp out of his car (with a smaller turbo). Follow him.

Aaron
Hmmm, food for thought, thanks Aaron. I didn't think cams would prevent that goal from being reached, especially with cam gears. Has no-one made 350 whp on the stock cams? And the 3sge ones are a minor increase in duration and lift...

Regardless, the cam install and adjusting will be the absolute last modification done on my list, along with the TVIS control and final tuning, so I will have an opportunity to see how the power turns out and adapt accordingly.

I will re-visit Dracon's build for sure.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 18:43   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Swint
That center exit exhaust looks terrible, imo.
Do you refer to the bumper cover outlet design in the 3rd picture, the general concept of a center-exit exhaust, the current round tip shape... or the combo?

The only thing that bothers me is that the current tip is not large enough, and needs to be something other than round. The new one is nearly 5" O.D., will fill the bumper shape nicely and sit higher up, and be near flush on the bottom flat edge. Only a 1/2" space around it.

I am going to check the look in the next day or so on the car, and if it needs to be bigger yet, I can easily make a new tip. I can probably go as big as 5.5" O.D., with a D-shape.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 18:55   #9
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Very pretty makes me miss my white vc and pipes, good job
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Old February 8th, 2011, 21:30   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Do you refer to the bumper cover outlet design in the 3rd picture, the general concept of a center-exit exhaust, the current round tip shape... or the combo?

The only thing that bothers me is that the current tip is not large enough, and needs to be something other than round. The new one is nearly 5" O.D., will fill the bumper shape nicely and sit higher up, and be near flush on the bottom flat edge. Only a 1/2" space around it.

I am going to check the look in the next day or so on the car, and if it needs to be bigger yet, I can easily make a new tip. I can probably go as big as 5.5" O.D., with a D-shape.
I don't like it at all. I saw your thread with the side exit and I think it looked MUCH better/cleaner. Do what appeals to you, not others, though. I'm just a critic.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 22:13   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Hmmm, food for thought, thanks Aaron. I didn't think cams would prevent that goal from being reached, especially with cam gears. Has no-one made 350 whp on the stock cams?
Not on pump gas.

Aaron
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Old February 8th, 2011, 22:37   #12
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your current setup is definitely good enough for your power goals, with the exception of the cams I agree. Go with the tried and tested setup, I think 264 to 272 but I'll lean on the 264 instead. Question is, will the stock rings or piston handle the power reliably? Stand alone ems would be best to optimize power potential.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 23:04   #13
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A new stock clutch will start to go around 325 RWHP, and wont last as long even if it does hold. My used stock clutch slipped at 255 RWHP.

For daily drivability a clutchmasters FX300 (Full faced kevlar with HD plate) would be a good choice and can be had for around $400US. For something a little more ATS do a puck style unsprung which many people have sworn by drivability wise.

Definatly worth doing your internals as well if you have the $$$, if your block doesnt need re boring you could get away with popping off the head and getting a light hone done in place and swapping in some 86mm forged pistons new rings, and while youre at it replace your headgasket and main studs with ARP stuff + do the headgasket with a ST205 metal one from Toyota.

One you crack a ring land or worse melt a piston and your block is scored, you have to remove the whole block and get a rebore to 86.5mm, this happened to me and the extra labour and to remove the block added to an already expensive project.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 23:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heylin
A new stock clutch will start to go around 325 RWHP, and wont last as long even if it does hold. My used stock clutch slipped at 255 RWHP.

For daily drivability a clutchmasters FX300 (Full faced kevlar with HD plate) would be a good choice and can be had for around $400US. For something a little more ATS do a puck style unsprung which many people have sworn by drivability wise.

Definatly worth doing your internals as well if you have the $$$, if your block doesnt need re boring you could get away with popping off the head and getting a light hone done in place and swapping in some 86mm forged pistons new rings, and while youre at it replace your headgasket and main studs with ARP stuff + do the headgasket with a ST205 metal one from Toyota.

One you crack a ring land or worse melt a piston and your block is scored, you have to remove the whole block and get a rebore to 86.5mm, this happened to me and the extra labour and to remove the block added to an already expensive project.
It would be nice to have a built bottom end by a reputable shop. Currently it is not in the financial plan. Many cars have had good results at such (and higher) power levels on the stock bottom end though. I am hoping that boost will not have to be high enough to worry about the HG.
As far as the clutch, I know that it is an inevitability, though I have been at 250 whp for 8 years on the stock clutch and have not had it slip once. I don't launch 50 times a week though .

When I am at the point of tuning the car and seeing what power it is producing at lower boost levels, I will certainly examine those two upgrades and see if it is in the cards. I don't like to over-extend my budgets . If I do end up dropping the engine (and have the opportunity/space), those upgrades would become much more likely/feasible since I will do extra work to take advantage of the situation.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 03:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93rhdgtsam
...Stand alone ems would be best to optimize power potential.
That is the beauty of the Honda P06 ecu (and other oem names as well). It is oem reliability (countless of engineers and massive budgets to get it right!) that when run with hondata or neptune software, for example (both have their own embedded datalogging/emulation), the ecu becomes a powerful standalone with all the programmability you could want. It is best explained in scarecrowX's excellent writeup here, he has taken the time to make and explain the conversion:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=381639&page=1

Now, I understand that this approach is not everyone's cup of tea. It involves lots of homework. But I think the concept is innovative, brilliant, and definitely outside of the box... and I find ideas like that very inspirational. It's things like that that get my brain turning and blood pumping.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 09:14   #16
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I too am shooting for that goal with my engine. I got GSC 268 cams from a vendor group buy and I'm fairly confident I'll reach my the 350whp mark.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 09:18   #17
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Hondata S300 all the way. Two step built in is amazing amongst all the other features. I know of two 800whp+ Civics that ran the S300
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Old February 9th, 2011, 11:21   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heylin
For daily drivability a clutchmasters FX300 (Full faced kevlar with HD plate) would be a good choice and can be had for around $400US...
FWIW, I just installed one of these on my daily driver and highly recommend it. Grips extremely well but you can slip it well enough for daily driving. I cannot compare it to the 6 puck though since I haven't driven one of those in an MR2.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 11:48   #19
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gandalf, FWIW, in the last iteration I had a completely stock 3sgte head with a GT3076 and peaked at 357rwhp on pump gas on a mustang dyno.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 11:52   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmandoP
gandalf, FWIW, in the last iteration I had a completely stock 3sgte head with a GT3076 and peaked at 357rwhp on pump gas on a mustang dyno.
What cams?
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