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New Turbo kit wastegate problems, laggy..

7K views 78 replies 7 participants last post by  tksmr2 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello,

I have have PTE dbb 5858 turbo kit from RacerX on my 93T with the following

Greddy Pex with KO racing 3" bpipe
Walbro 255
CRW axle cages
Berk SMIC
Tial MVS
Top mount manifold-vband
3" downpipe, re-routed..
NO MBC ( I do have a TurboXS MBC, but have to run just on wastegate for now, so mbc is out of the equation)

I had it all put on and then took it for a test drive. It's really super laggy and if I floor it I can get into boost, but it's real laggy and only gets to about 3psi.

So, I tore everything back apart to make sure I didn't leave anything like a rag in the ports in the head to manifold, intake manifold , or intercooler piping. I ran compressed air through the exhaust manifold and everything seems fine.

Put it back together, and of course I'm still having problems. Thinking maybe I messed up the diaphram when I put the springs in and it pinched.. possibly?? I should have checked that, but didn't.


I ran compressed air to the wastegate port and the valve is working fine. I ran compressed air to it on the car, working fine. The fire ring is indeed installed 100% for sure as I checked that too.


I also re ran the vacuum line several different ways to the MV-S and nothing changed. I also put a block off screw at the top side port of the wastegate and that didn't help either. I have the top port vented just like the instructions say. I'm at a loss, so I'm seeking help on here. Thanks!




This line is going to the 'air' port on the side of my wastegate.




Shows the connection at my 'air' port from that 5/16" hose that is show in the pic above. I have a metal vac line connecting the 5/16" hose to the metal line to the vac line leading to the waste gate.




pic showing the vac line off the stock intake manifold to the stock BPV.




I also ran the vac line from the intake manifold straight to the wastegate, and that didn't help. I ran the vac lines in several other configurations, and nothing helped. So, I either got some mystery item stuck in my piping somewhere, the wastegate is faulty or I have the vac lines somehow hooked up wrong. But, how do I know for sure the wastegate is faulty other than buying another one?



Thanks!!
 
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#2 ·
Have you tried running without any vac lines to the wastegate so it stays shut?

This should prove that the wastegate is actually shut and you should boost up really quick, just be careful on the throttle, dont just floor it lol

I was wondering if you put the right springs in there, you dont just have 1 super weak spring in do you causing the wastegate to open straight away? You do have to put a combination of springs in to get your desired boost level, i put 2 or 3 in mine to get 1bar boost.

Graeme
 
#3 ·
Okay, thanks for the advice.. Good idea. I'll try just running it w/o any line to it. From the sounds of it.. I bet I pinched the diaphragm b/c it didnt' take me very long to put those springs in and I guess I wasn't looking to whether the diaphragm actually was getting hung up b/c I didn't see it hanging out.. but I also didnt' look very carefully.

I put the white and green springs in it for 11.60psi. Remember, I'm on the stock GEN3 ecu for now, and stock GEN3 injectors, so I'm only able to boost so much until I get my EMS, and air to water setup, cams, etc.

Tial MVS spring chart: http://www.tialsport.com/documents/MVSspc.png

Thanks!!!!
 
#4 ·
Yeh, it does sound to me like your just loosing it through the wastegate, have you checked youe pipes are all intake from the turbo to intercooler and then to the throttle body?

I remember years ago i washunting a problem and just kept checking the clamps but a hose had spklit underneath where i couldnt see right in the middle from heat and movement.

When you said the fire ring was in place, im assuming you meant the valve seat for the wastegate? Thats what i thought straight away when i read this post

Graeme
 
#5 ·
Graeme,

Yes.. I mean the valve seat.. aka fire ring. I don't know what the official term is for it from Tial .. but I know people call it the fire ring as well. I know for a fact that's installed.

I took off the entire kit last week.. Keep in mind taking this setup off b/c of the re-route downpipe takes forever/ all day project. and then putting everything back together took me several days.. I checked all the piping, intake hoses, exhaust piping.. ran compressed air through everything.. all clear.

I also checked the intake manifold, all clear.


It almost has to be the wastegate, unless I have something lodged in the exhaust manifold like a Styrofoam peanut or something stupid like that.. but I doubt it.

All my intercooler hoses are brand new as well.

Thanks!
 
#6 ·
Wastegate boost reference should never have vacuum on it, sohaving a line from the intake manifold is incorrect. You should route a vacuum line from the turbo compressor nipple to the side of the wastegate. Also make sure you installed all the waste gate port plugs as well.
 
#7 ·
Okay, I thought this might be the case when I looked at other diagrams on the web of other platforms. So, when I was switching around vac lines this afternoon, I tried running a vac line from the turbo compressor to the wastegate, and it didn't make any difference.

I removed the vac line going into the wastegate tonight, and ran it up the alley behind my house, and it still would not boost.

So, I removed the wastegate tonight. I didn't notice it being pinched when I was taking it apart. I also looked for tears, nothing.

Here is a pic. I only see two little indents, but I think that is normal, and they are not tears. I guess I could have pinched it, and not known it.

Anyway, I will try putting it back together carefully, and also running the vac line from the compressor nipple to the wastegate, and cross my fingers again.

Here is a pic of the wastegate. I'm using the white and green spring.. they are the correct springs for about 12psi which is what I'm going to be running until I can afford the next step in my setup.






 
#8 · (Edited)
I also don't have any exhaust leaks. Well, at least any glaring ones that I can hear or feel.

I also have all the ports marked ' AIR ' on the side blocked except the one port that I'm using. I have the very top port vented to atmosphere, and the other top, but on the side port vented to the atmosphere.

The H20 ports on the side are open, but the PTE is not water cooled.
 
#10 ·
I would run a boost leak test, it is simple and will rule that out.

My turbo acted this same way when I have a leaking wastegate though. Possible it is not sealing all the way?
 
#14 ·
Most of the area that you are looking into with the wastegate would be causing overboost issue's, not "no / low boost" issue's. Basically things like the diaphragm being pinched or air leaks to the diaphragm would cause it to not open at all and thus you would get overboost conditions. If you want to make sure that the wastegate is technically functioning correctly, take it off and make sure that the valve seat (fire ring) appears to seal against the valve when its set into the wastegate (take a flash light and shine it in the discharge port and make sure you dont see light around the contact between the valve and the seat). Then make sure that seat is sitting above the surface of the V-band face when its sitting on the valve. Make sure that when you try to push the seat down that you feel spring tension as its compressing the valve.

Looking at the 2nd photo in Post # 7, it appears that most of the above is "correct" and thus the wastegate should be working as it should.

This really only leaves a potential exhaust leak pre-turbine but it would have to be huge to cause the issues you are descriping. Example, I had a guy bring me a car with a hole the size of a dime in the collector and the turbo (an SB46) would still spool to about 8psi with a 12psi spring setup in the gate. So as you can see, the leak would have to be really big to cause you to only be able to get 3psi out of it.

It really sounds like you have a boost leak somewhere and need to do a boost leak test as it was pointed out. Also, dont drive it and try to boost any until after you verify / fix any boost leak cause if there is a leak and its the cause of the problem (low boost and extreme lag), you are also over spinning the turbo which can destroy it in fairly short order.
 
#15 ·
Most of the area that you are looking into with the wastegate would be causing overboost issue's, not "no / low boost" issue's. Basically things like the diaphragm being pinched or air leaks to the diaphragm would cause it to not open at all and thus you would get overboost conditions. If you want to make sure that the wastegate is technically functioning correctly, take it off and make sure that the valve seat (fire ring) appears to seal against the valve when its set into the wastegate (take a flash light and shine it in the discharge port and make sure you dont see light around the contact between the valve and the seat). Then make sure that seat is sitting above the surface of the V-band face when its sitting on the valve. Make sure that when you try to push the seat down that you feel spring tension as its compressing the valve.

Looking at the 2nd photo in Post # 7, it appears that most of the above is "correct" and thus the wastegate should be working as it should.



This really only leaves a potential exhaust leak pre-turbine but it would have to be huge to cause the issues you are descriping. Example, I had a guy bring me a car with a hole the size of a dime in the collector and the turbo (an SB46) would still spool to about 8psi with a 12psi spring setup in the gate. So as you can see, the leak would have to be really big to cause you to only be able to get 3psi out of it.

It really sounds like you have a boost leak somewhere and need to do a boost leak test as it was pointed out. Also, dont drive it and try to boost any until after you verify / fix any boost leak cause if there is a leak and its the cause of the problem (low boost and extreme lag), you are also over spinning the turbo which can destroy it in fairly short order.
Thanks!

All of my intercooler hoses are brand new, and I checked them for tears.

The only place were I can think of it having a boost leak is the lower connection on the SMIC. That can be a real pain, and it looks like maybe (big maybe) my pipe down there is not quite lined up.. but it's very tight. Having this LONG one piece pipe going to the bottom of the SMIC is not necessarily easy to work with. I'll see what I can find out with a boost leak tester. I'm hoping I find a problem soon.

pic of the valve seat/fire ring in place.

 
#18 · (Edited)
Going to do a boost leak test soon.. but.. this is important to mention this.

Okay, I should have mentioned this from the very beginning. I'm trying to ignore this in my mind b/c it's potentially the reason for all of this, and also the fact that if this means bad turbo, then I'm out of luck here money wise and time wise.

I had this turbo sitting on a box in my house for around 1.5 years before I put this on my car. When I picked it up, there was a tiny bit of oil on the box. I didn't think much of it at the time.

So, I put the setup on my car, and it's leaking very little.. tiny tiny bit from around that black bolt in this picture. There is a seep notch hole by the bolt that I assume is for seeping out oil, or maybe that's how the metal plate is just designed.

The wheels on both the turbine and compressor housing sides look fine, and spin fine. I thought the oil leak burned off and went away for good after the test drive, but it's still there. It's not enough to drip onto the ground, but it's on the underside of the turbine.

I guess I should be concerned about this, right? I read another thread online about this exact problem, and the fella said it went away after driving the car, but since I have this boost issue.. I'm thinking I'm screwed.





Also, the turbo came with a restrictor. To be honest, I didn't even know what I restrictor looked like until I did a bing image search after I put the turbo kit on. I didn't see how the feed line fits to the top of the turbine w/o the restrictor, so I put what I thought was just a fitting on at the time on the turbo, so that I could hook the feed line up to it.

I didnt' receive any other fitting to hook the feed line up, so I assumed I had to use this restrictor to hook it up. So, I need help with that as well.


 
#19 ·
If the turbine / compressor wheel assembly spins freely, then that is not your issue.

Was the turbo brand new when you put it in / on the car? Then the leak might fix itself after a bit of running. Brand new turbo's will sometimes seep oil past the shaft seal (which is just a piston ring. It seats / seals it self after a bit of running. Even turbo's that are used will seep oil past the ring if they are stood up on the turbine end cause again, its a piston ring with a slit in it to allow it to expand and contract.
 
#20 ·
The turbo is brand new. I bought this kit back around 1.5 years ago. It sat around to just a few months ago.

Time for a boost leak test. I will let everyone know the results. I hope I do find a leak.

Also, I took apart my throttle body at least a 1/2 dozen times in the past few years. there is that metal gasket that gets placed on the intake manifold, and I re-used that. Never had a problem doing that before b/c my CT20b boosted to 17psi perfectly fine.

So,I'm thinking I may have a leak in the throttle body area as well.
 
#21 ·
Anyone know if I should be running the restrictor, or not. I was told not to with a dbb turbo like this. But... I dont' know what fitting I need to screw the feed line onto. As you can tell, I'm a newbie to a lot of this stuff, but I hate paying people to do something like this.
 
#22 ·
Oh, and the "slit" that you see on the plate that is under the bolt is the split between the housing clamps. Basically there are two clamps that hold the turbine housing to the bearing housing and what you are looking at is one of the two bolts where the two clamps meet. Each clamp has a half circle cutout instead of a full hole so that when the two meet at a bolt, there ends up being a full bolt hole. See photo below....



Also, have you by chance started it up without the intake pipe on it just to verify that the compressor is spinning and rev it some to make sure that it appears that the compressor speeds up?
 
#23 ·
I see. thxs.

Yes.. well, I have had the intake pipe off and the engine running and the wheel is spinning. I can actually hear the wheel slowing down when I turn off the car.. I'm guessing/hoping that is normal.

I didn't rev the car up to see if the wheel starts spinning faster. I can do that later.
 
#24 ·
Sounds like the turbo is fine as it appears to be doing exactly what it should be.....

Although you might have a leak at the TB (but doubtful), it wouldn't be your primary problem cause you really couldn't get a leak big enough to cause that much boost loss. Further more, if you did have a leak big enough there, it would also be a vacuum leak and you would have a REALLY high idle speed from it (probably a couple thou RPM at minimum).
 
#25 ·
i almost guarantee its a boost leak now. i wouldnt be surprised if the bottom intercooler pipe is really loose. If the TB was leaking enough to throw out 8psi of boost, you would have a crazy vacuum leak, and really really high idle. i have a 5858 as well, and yes leave the restrictor on there, it comes from the factory with one, do not remove it!
 
#26 ·
Awesome.. thanks!

I just make a boost leak tester, but didn't have any jb weld or fast drying epoxy, so I'm waiting on it to dry now. I have to put that dang wastegate back in the car .. dreading that b/c of so little space.
 
#27 ·
youre leaking the boost through the wastegate because its plumbed in wrong.

you need to run a line from the compressor housing of the tubro to the side port of the wastegate.

You block off the remaining 2 air ports on the side of the gate. Leave the top one vented to atmosphere and the top side port needs to be blocked off as well.

Angel
 
#29 ·
Thanks.. yes I knew after asking on here that I had to run a line from the compressor to the wastegate like that. I wasnt' sure if I had to block off the top side port, but I will do that as well.

My question is were do the other two vac lines go? The one I have plumbed into the compressor housing now, and also the line that runs under the coolant tree that I have going to the wastegate now. Do those two just join together, or get blocked off?
 
#34 ·
First I would like to say thanks to everyone for help me out. Inexperience got the best of me with this.

I had two boost leaks. Both intercooler side hoses were loose. The top one I felt the lip of the pipe exposed on the bottom. The bottom one I had really tight, but not lined up right and it blew off at about 12psi of boost.

So, I focused on making sure the intercooler hoses were pushed on correctly before tightening the pipes up top.
 
#38 ·
Okay, bringing this back.

Once I got the boost leaks fixed, I took the car around the block, and it boosted fine. I only hit boost twice that day, and put the car back in the garage b/c I knew my clutch clevis needed some adjustment, and I've had my share of clutch problems.

So, I went to adjust the clevis last night. Most everything seemed seemed fine but at idle I noticed my vac was reading lower than usual -17 or so, instead of -19-21 and then only was able to boost, maybe 5 psi, and laggy again. So, I thought, oh great, another leak.

I also noticed the slight smoke came back above the turbine... I could also smell a slight oil burning smell again from that area. I'm not sure if this is just something that will go away, and is happening b/c it's new and it hasn't had time to seal up, or what's going on! It's worrying me b/c I haven't even come close to driving it hard yet. I can't fine any leaks at all, and even under the turbine it's dry this time. I'm just afraid of something catching on fire!

So, I spent several hours last night taking my IC pipes back off, and then I noticed that the siliconeintakes.com hoses I bought are shorter than the red hoses I previous had on my SMIC. Also, the red hoses are also slightly thicker ply. Seems like they are 4 ply vs. the siliconeintakes 3 ply. So, I used a red hose on the bottom SMIC connection b/c it seemed a little off center when I took it off, albeit it was tight, that has to be were my leak was coming from.

I used t-bolt clamps this time as well.


***

Also, I removed my oil feed line, and re-positioned it go in front of the CHRA instead of behind it, where it was actually touching both the manifold and the return line. It's positioned much better now. But, maybe since I removed the oil feed line, oil may have settled in the housing causing it to burn off again, hence the smoke again??! not sure.




Thanks!
 
#39 ·
The smoke could be from you removing oil feed line and getting some oil on it. And after the car heated up it burned off causing some smoke. Because of the system is sealed the turbo should smoke from the turbo itself but rather out of the exhaust unless there is an oil leak.
 
#42 ·
Maybe.. I do remember using brake cleaner to clean off a few parts in that area as well.

I'm going to dis-connect the feedline from the top and put it in a soda bottle, remove the fuel pump fuse, and crank it to make sure I'm getting oil flow.

Also, I was told that the drain line acts as a PVC vent causing smoke, especially at high vac conditions like idle.
 
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