E153 3rd/4th gear synchro question - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old March 18th, 2017, 17:07 Thread Starter
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E153 3rd/4th gear synchro question

The question is not so much about the synchro's, but rather if the selector ring is installed backwards.

I'm in the process of rebuilding my '92 E153. I've ordered all new bearings, synchro's etc. As the original synchro's for the '92 E153 are discontinued, I've ordered the '93+ synchro's, including all surrounding parts (gears/shifter hubs), so that it essentially the same as the '93+ box. I've followed the workshop manual to reassemble the input and output shafts.

My question is regarding the selector ring on the input shaft, so for 3rd and 4th gear. Looking at the way the teeth on the synchro's, selector ring and gears are arranged, it just does not seem right. The teeth are asymmetrical on one side. It looks like the ring should be the other way around to match the teeth on the synchro's and gears, but the manual clearly says that the side with the groove should go to the front (so facing 3rd gear). Then again, some selector rings I see on the internet have a groove on both sides, one being bigger than the other one. Mine only has a small groove on one side.. Unfortunately none of the pictures I find on the internet clearly show the teeth of the selector ring.

I took some pictures and highlighted the problem area:

3rd gear (gear and synchro teeth are asymmetrical, selector ring teeth are symmetrical)


4th gear ( the other way around. Gear and synchro teeth are symmetrical, selector teeth are asymmetrical)


From above, in red the teeth in the selector ring as they are arranged now



On the output shaft, everything lines up as I'd expect, so all asymmetrical teeth are on the same side.

I hope you understand my question, as I'm having a hard time explaining this

Last edited by decipherer; March 24th, 2017 at 18:06.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2017, 09:55 Thread Starter
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No answers unfortunately.. In the meantime I searched all over the internet for a decent picture to see how it should be assembled. I could not find any clear pictures showing the selector ring. So then I decided it's probably best to try and understand how it works exactly, and watched this youtube video:


The part in the video that starts at 03:50 got me wondering if the selector ring lined up correctly with the synchro. It lined up like this (With the orange parts being the synchro's, the black parts the selector rings. Top is synchro to one side, lower is synchro to the other side.)



I don't think this is correct as with the synchro's to the right, the points of the teeth are almost touching. Turning the selector ring around results in the following fitment:



So I went ahead and changed it around. Synchro to the left:



Synchro to the right:

Last edited by decipherer; March 24th, 2017 at 18:14.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2017, 14:37
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Wish I had the answer for you but at least with your good description and diagram I understand the problem.

Wonder if anyone has a trans stripped down and can confirm OEM arrangement.

Jim
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2017, 16:03
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In both of the 93 transaxles I rebuilt, the groove of the No. 2 Hub sleeve (3/4 selector ring) is towards the input shaft clutch splines. The 93 service manual says the same thing.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 06:00 Thread Starter
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Were those from before or after 08/1993 (so with all symmetrical teeth, or asymmetrical on one side?). The groove selector ring in my pre 08/1993 box was also facing the input shaft splines, but for those early boxes it doesn't really matter as the teeth are all symmetrical, so both sides of the selector ring are the same.

Did you have a look at how the teeth of the selector ring/synchro/gear were arranged? (So all asymmetrical teeth on one side, or not)

For the later boxes, I sometimes see selector rings with two grooves. A bigger one, facing the input shaft splines, and a smaller groove on the other side, like the lower shaft in the image below. Mine only has the smaller groove.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 09:26
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One trans was from my 93T (manufacture date of Feb 92). The other trans I don't know. I bought it from a member. I think it was an early 93 trans. Photo is of the input shaft from the unknown trans. I don't recall which version of the OEM LSD it had, and I don't see any photos on my computer of the splines vs flats. for the spider gears (which would help identify it). I might be able to get the metal tag number from the guy I sold that trans to, if he still has it.

Not sure if the tag number will help?
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File Type: jpg InputShaft-zoom1.jpg (72.2 KB, 9 views)
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 13:09 Thread Starter
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by tag number? I don't know of any way to determine the build month/year from a number on the outside of the box if that is what you mean.

It would be of great help if you had a sharp version of the thumbnail you attached to your post. The picture is taken in approx. the correct angle, but I'm not able to make out the teeth on the selector ring.

Last edited by decipherer; April 11th, 2017 at 15:29.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 14:36
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First three digits stamped into the housing next to the clutch fork hole are year and month of manufacture. Eg S308xxxx = Aug 93
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 15:31 Thread Starter
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I didn't know that, thanks!

In that case I guess the number would help, especially if the picture was taken before disassembling the input shaft.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2017, 15:32
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If you click on the thumbnail, it gets bigger by a lot.

I'm not certain I could identify what specifically you are looking for. Also: this photo is from a few years ago as I don't have an E153 other than assembled and in my car. I looked for other photos of the input shaft but did not find that I had any of it when it was fully assembled.

Thanks for the info GrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrNZ !
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old April 12th, 2017, 06:10 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbulen View Post
If you click on the thumbnail, it gets bigger by a lot.
I knew that But even then I can not make out the teeth on the selector ring.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old April 12th, 2017, 09:12
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I have another thought: I will check my garage today after work. I have a box full of all the E153 parts I replaced. I seem to recall replacing one or 2 selector rings from my 93T trans.
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