Stock OEM fuel injector seal/insulator doesn't fit the fuel rail! - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 12:21 Thread Starter
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Stock OEM fuel injector seal/insulator doesn't fit the fuel rail!

I'm converting back from a Racer X fuel rail to stock injectors and stock fuel rail. Nothing wrong with the Racer X product, I need to get my car approved by the DMV, and they don't allow such parts.

One of the seals at the very bottom (the so-called "insulator, fuel pipe" in Toyota terminology) had a tear, and I had to order a couple new ones. I ordered original ones from Toyota, 23845C "INSULATOR, FUEL PIPE", part number 2384588380.

However, they do not fit. Please see this image to see the difference between them and the original ones I had that fit:



Here is a diagram of the fuel injection system, showing where part 23845C is:



The middle ones are the old ones that fit. The leftmost and rightmost ones are the new ones I got from Toyota. They do not fit. By "not fit" I mean there is play in them (when seated), they do not seal properly. It can be seen from the image that they are too long, and they are also approximately 2 mm too narrow on the outer diameter.

I have no idea what is going on. I thought at first maybe I ordered the insulators for a different generation of the 3S-GTE than the one I have, but Toyota tells me that part number 2384588380 is the only part they have for all of the 3S-GTE versions that exist.

I no longer remember where I got the middle insulators from. Either they came with the used fuel rail that I bought, or I got them as part of some kit.

My question is simply, what is going on here, and where can I get insulators that fit?


Edit: Is this the stock fuel rail? Do I unknowingly have a non-stock fuel rail?

Last edited by diracdeltafunct; January 9th, 2017 at 13:56.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 14:36 Thread Starter
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gen 3 rail to head injector seal, same as gen 2?

From this thread it appears there is a difference between the stock fuel rail for gen 2 and gen 3.

If anyone could tell me what generation it appears I have, that would be great.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 15:23
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Gen2 and Gen3 rails only fit into their respective heads. Different spacing. Whatever head you have, you need that fuel rial.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 18:35 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Paluce View Post
Gen2 and Gen3 rails only fit into their respective heads. Different spacing. Whatever head you have, you need that fuel rial.
The rail should fit the engine, as it was installed in the same engine before.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 18:38
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So what head do you have?
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 23:20
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It is definately an OEM casting by the Aisin that is cast into it. And it looks to me to be a gen2 rail since it has the boss for the cold start injector that you've blocked off. So they should be the correct part.

Something odd going on. Do you have the correct plastic spacers in the head, and was the rail sitting down correctly?
Try removing those middle insulators and see if they are what is stopping it from seating correctly?

A gen 2 rail wont even be close to fitting a gen3 head, the injector spacings are out by a large amount so we can rule that one out.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 07:41 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Paluce View Post
So what head do you have?
I have a third generation head.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 07:43 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GrrrrrrrNZ View Post
It is definately an OEM casting by the Aisin that is cast into it. And it looks to me to be a gen2 rail since it has the boss for the cold start injector that you've blocked off. So they should be the correct part.

Something odd going on. Do you have the correct plastic spacers in the head, and was the rail sitting down correctly?
Try removing those middle insulators and see if they are what is stopping it from seating correctly?

A gen 2 rail wont even be close to fitting a gen3 head, the injector spacings are out by a large amount so we can rule that one out.
I have a third generation head, would a gen2 rail be possible to fit into a gen3 head?

The same rail should have fit the car before. It is possible that the tuner shop that upgraded the engine (the tuner shop that installed the Racer X fuel rail) gave me back a gen2 rail instead of a gen3 rail by mistake.

I'm not familiar with the plastic spacers that sit in the head itself. I will have to look into that.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 14:16
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No, gen2 rail wont fit a gen3 head, the injectors are different distances apart.

Hang on, that pic you posted is definately a gen2 rail..


Top one is gen2 with black 450cc injectors, bottom is gen3 with the red 540cc injectors.

Yours has the cold start injector boss and the shape of the injector bowls is the same as the gen2 rail, the mould lines up the injector bowls.. Definately a gen2 rail. If you do have a gen3 head then there is no way that'll fit.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 15:16
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Originally Posted by diracdeltafunct View Post
I'm not familiar with the plastic spacers that sit in the head itself. I will have to look into that.
The plastic spacers go on the bolts that hold the rail to the head. These are noted as 23807V on the parts diagram. If you do order these new for any reason there are 2 part numbers, one for the GEN2 and one for the GEN3.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 15:32 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrrrrrrrNZ View Post
No, gen2 rail wont fit a gen3 head, the injectors are different distances apart.

Hang on, that pic you posted is definately a gen2 rail..


Top one is gen2 with black 450cc injectors, bottom is gen3 with the red 540cc injectors.

Yours has the cold start injector boss and the shape of the injector bowls is the same as the gen2 rail, the mould lines up the injector bowls.. Definately a gen2 rail. If you do have a gen3 head then there is no way that'll fit.
Thank you. This is extremely helpful.

Perhaps I'm mistaken when I say that I have a third generation head then. I'm only going by what I was told by the seller of the car. I don't know how to tell a second generation head apart from a third generation head.

But the garage that's trying to fit this fuel rail are telling me that it does fit, in terms of actually physically being possible to seat into the head. However, there is play when using these insulators on the far left and far right in the picture. I've ordered another pair of the ones in the middle, and we'll see how that goes.

But just to confirm, what you're saying is that if there was a mismatch between the generation of the fuel rail and the generation of the head, then the fuel rail simply wouldn't be possible to seat into the head. This because the spacing between the injector mouldings are differently spaced apart?
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 16:13
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GEN2 valve cover



GEN3 Valve cover



GEN 3 heads have an oil drain for the catch can where a GEN2 doesn't.


I don't think you can bolt a GEN2 cover to a GEN3 head.

How many runners does the intake manifold have? 4 singles or 4 doubles?
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 13:55 Thread Starter
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Again, thanks for the help.

So it seems I have both a gen. 2 fuel rail and a gen. 2 head on my engine (I checked previous pictures, it is definitely a gen. 2 head). This is all news to me, which is probably strongly related to the confusion, as I have no idea what I'm really looking for.

The funny thing is that according to the garage working on my car the middle insulators, the thick ones, they actually fit better. There is play when using the actual genuine insulators, namely the 23845-88380 (gen2) insulators.

But they didn't try to tighten everything down. Perhaps if they do, they will seat properly and fit correctly?
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 14:34
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There is only one part number for the GEN2 engine 23845-88380
The PNC changed completely for the GEN3 so you can't really get that wrong.

How do the middle seals seat if the new outer ones are longer?
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 15:58 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDII View Post
There is only one part number for the GEN2 engine 23845-88380
The PNC changed completely for the GEN3 so you can't really get that wrong.

How do the middle seals seat if the new outer ones are longer?
Sorry, the PNC?
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 16:43
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Part Number Code. This is the code that each part type generally gets and can quite often be very different to the first half of the actual Part Number and covers multiple part numbers.

ie 23845C is the PNC for PN# 23845-88380. For this one there is only one PN# for the PNC on the MR2 turbo car.

Another example is the fuel rail for the JDM MR2.
PNC is 23807
PN# for GEN2 is 23814-88382
PN# for GEN3 is 23807-88480
As you can see the GEN2 rails first 5 digits don't 100% match the PNC but the GEN3 rail does. You can't order parts just using the PNC.

Just a bit on information about Toyotas parts system.
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 18:45 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDII View Post
Part Number Code. This is the code that each part type generally gets and can quite often be very different to the first half of the actual Part Number and covers multiple part numbers.

ie 23845C is the PNC for PN# 23845-88380. For this one there is only one PN# for the PNC on the MR2 turbo car.

Another example is the fuel rail for the JDM MR2.
PNC is 23807
PN# for GEN2 is 23814-88382
PN# for GEN3 is 23807-88480
As you can see the GEN2 rails first 5 digits don't 100% match the PNC but the GEN3 rail does. You can't order parts just using the PNC.

Just a bit on information about Toyotas parts system.
I see, thanks.

But the insulators I need should be 23814-88382, if I understand the reasoning correctly?
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 19:08
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Originally Posted by diracdeltafunct View Post
I see, thanks.

But the insulators I need should be 23814-88382, if I understand the reasoning correctly?
No, that's the fuel rail part number. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you about what you had bought. The insulators you circled in your first image and the part number you gave is correct. 23845-88380

If I were you I'd get 2 more of them and get your garage to install the rail properly. There shouldn't be any issues.
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 14:28 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GDII View Post
No, that's the fuel rail part number. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you about what you had bought. The insulators you circled in your first image and the part number you gave is correct. 23845-88380

If I were you I'd get 2 more of them and get your garage to install the rail properly. There shouldn't be any issues.
Great. I've ordered a couple more of those then.

The garage seemed to actually prefer the "thick" ones, namely 23291-88480 (gen 3). They said that the gen 2 insulators (23845-88380) had some "play" in them when seating the fuel rail into the head, that they could move the fuel rail around slightly, as if there was not a tight seal.

But they never tried to tighten down the fuel rail, and from what I understand the insulators will then get squished so that they form a tight seal. I think they were just a little surprised that the gen 3 insulators appear to seal better than the gen 2 ones, when this is a gen 2 rail and a gen 2 head. I'm also a bit surprised at this!

I hope it will fit with the gen 2 insulators then.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 17:36
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The fuel rail should not move once fully bolted down so this play they are talking about can't happen. These insulators are important as they hold boost pressure and the air fuel mixture so getting this right is a must.

Good luck getting this sorted, sounds like you have a lot of hoops to jump through for the DMV in your country before they will let you drive it. Most people would give up but it's good to see you staying with it and pushing forward.
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