Attention - Password and Security Update - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old June 14th, 2016, 10:06 Thread Starter
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Attention - Password and Security Update

Hello all,

Over the next few days we will be implementing some changes to our forum password strength and password expiration policies. To make sure you continue having the best experience possible on the community, we regularly monitor the site and the Internet to keep everyone's account information safe. We've recently become aware of a potential risk to some accounts coming from outside of this community. Just to be safe, we are implementing the following changes to improve security even further:

1) We are asking everyone to change their passwords (and will force a one time reset). Along with every user on the forum, new passwords will need to be more complex, and can't be simple words (sorry, you can't have "fluffy" as your password anymore!). Please use a password unique to this community. Reusing passwords can expose your account indirectly when other websites (Twitter, Linkedin, Badoo, etc) are compromised; and

2) Your passwords will expire on a 365 day basis. When you login on the 366th day, you will have to change it.

We'll also be sending out an email to users to let them know about the changes, in upcoming weeks.

Thanks all,

Helena

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old June 15th, 2016, 11:00
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It wouldn't hurt to change your password right now. A large number of Verticalscope-owned forums have been compromised, meaning that your username / password are out in the wild and for sale.

There is no need to panic, but the quicker you act, the quicker you can contain the damage. For example, if you use the same password / username / email address on other sites, those are at risk too.

More information here:
45 Million Accounts Hacked At Some Of The Biggest Car Forums

More information from LeakedSource (where this compromise was reported)
https://www.leakedsource.com/blog/verticalscope

This would be a good time to look up your various email addresses / user IDs and see if they have been compromised elsewhere. Here are a couple of sites I use:

https://www.leakedsource.com/main/
https://haveibeenpwned.com/


It's good to change passowrds periodically and keep them unique per-site. Use a tool such as LastPass, Dashlane, or KeePass to keep track of passwords and generate hard-to-guess ones.

Stay safe out there!

Last edited by Marmot; June 15th, 2016 at 11:05.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old June 15th, 2016, 22:21
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When is the government going to crack down on hackers and those miscreants who propogate viruses?
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old June 16th, 2016, 09:45 Thread Starter
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Unfortunately the article fails to mention that the breach was for a third party plugin. This breach is on countless sites across the internet and not just limited to ours.

This is why we have reached out to the community and have encourage that members change their password, especially if they currently have an easy one.

Thank you so much

~ Glenda
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old June 16th, 2016, 12:03
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Being a member of more than 1 VS site and having 3 computers, purposely non-synced, a lot of messing around coming up.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old June 17th, 2016, 14:52
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I am a software developer and this is my strongest password yet. For a forum that has zero financial account type info it’s a little overbearing.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old June 17th, 2016, 15:23
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ugh. thx marmot
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old June 17th, 2016, 15:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadjo View Post
I am a software developer and this is my strongest password yet. For a forum that has zero financial account type info itís a little overbearing.
Exactly. It's a forum. I like to keep my secure passwords for sites that matter, not forums.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old June 17th, 2016, 19:27
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OHHH Man this is just comedy gold. And it couldn't have happened to a better group of JERKS than VerticalScope.

Wow, karma must be painful for you bunch of community destroying Canadians. There really aren't that many Canadian jerks, but I assure the reader they all must work for VerticalScope.

You guys have ruined this MR2 community by taking away it's independent and self sustaining nature. This is the part of "Community" you guys will never understand. You have ruined other forums that our company and many others used to advertise with, including one that is listed on the Jalopnik article.

I can understand how such an overreaching organization like VerticalScope can finally get a taste of their own medicine, but riddle me how in the WORLD you guys don't have a high level security team from ALL THE RIDICULOUS COSTS you impose to drag industries and communities down. This is ENTIRELY unacceptable and you know it. VerticalScope's embarrassment is wholeheartedly deserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR2 Admin View Post
Unfortunately the article fails to mention that the breach was for a third party plugin.
Are you serious? Just what do you guys expect when you have 25 DIFFERENT SCRIPT SOURCES RUNNING ON THIS ONE MR2 FORUM? How many more trackers and data miners and statistics and advertising partners do you need to shamelessly ram down our throats? How can you expect to trust all these third party sites......and run them without "our" explicit consent?

The sad thing is even after this happens VerticalScope will continue to use script after script and plug-in after plug-in to remove what little openness remains. The days of community-driven forums are slipping away. It is such a sad thing to watch. Now members have to participate in fear of the next crappy software corporations want to force feed them.

I have such animosity towards VerticalScope for this forum because I have been a member since January 1999 when we didn't have a forum, we had a MR2 Mailing List. That is how this community was created, by peer to peer passion, not intense advertising and commercialism.

Moreover I have an invested issue with VerticalScope because they have bullied many companies out of "communities" by raising advertising rates from $200/month independently-ran to now over $1,000/month commercially-ran which includes HORRIFIC customer service. This is to be expected since every community VerticalScope takes over is just another row on their financial statement.

MR2OC.com, do you think VerticalScope cares about your users? You better look again least you also become consumed with their greed while more and more of us migrate to International MR2 Owners Club | which only runs scripts from three, yes only THREE off-site servers.......and they are ALL trusted servers: Facebook, Google, and Yahoo. MR2OC.com has more than 8 TIMES more third party sites involved with their users and you wonder why old school people like myself become disgruntled. This isn't the first time I've expressed my discontent with VerticalScope here and sadly it won't be the last. :'(

.....This used to be such a great community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarnodude View Post
When is the government going to crack down on hackers and those miscreants who propogate viruses?
sarnodude,
What you have said is the same as, "When is the government going to crack down on the MR2 community for customizing MR2s to make them work the way owners desire." What is wrong with actively researching and discovering there is a way to make the MR2 handle better than Toyota designed it? The same applies with software. An imperfect world cannot produce perfect software. Software bugs are a way of programming life. Just as independent users have made subsequent cars better from their research with the MR2, these "hackers" have made the internet a far more safe place by keeping software writers honest and liable for their mistakes.

So sorry for MR2OC to see what has become of their once really fantastic community.

Member since 1999,
BigMike

Last edited by BigMike; June 17th, 2016 at 19:31.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old June 17th, 2016, 20:21
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Exactly. It's a forum. I like to keep my secure passwords for sites that matter, not forums.
Why are you penalizing us, the users, for your mistakes?

If you were storing your hashes with a proper salt there would be no possibility of hackers decoding passwords even if they could steal the hash files.

There's nobody trying to brute force individual passwords. Hackers are only interested in brute forcing large password files stolen from servers with lax security.

Strong passwords and 365 day expirations are ridiculous overkill for a forum with no financial transactions.

Don't foist password security onto the users when it is your poor security that exposed the passwords in the first place.

If I want to be stupid enough to use the same password for my entertainment on a forum as I use for my banking accounts, that's my problem.

You just do your job and secure your servers from intrusion. And update your security to current standards that would make cracking of any stolen hash files impossible.

It's not that hard to do.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old June 19th, 2016, 09:02
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Why does my new password work on my laptop but i cant seem to log in on my phone. It just says incorrect username or password. wtf

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old June 19th, 2016, 12:47
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Oh, people actually use this site since they took over and screwed it up? I had forgotten about it until I was told I had to change my password. What a joke.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old June 19th, 2016, 13:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmcguirk View Post
Why are you penalizing us, the users, for your mistakes?

...

Strong passwords and 365 day expirations are ridiculous overkill for a forum with no financial transactions.

Don't foist password security onto the users when it is your poor security that exposed the passwords in the first place.
Well spoken edmcguirk. Neither PayPal nor my online banking resets my passwords annually. I entirely agree this is way overkill for a MR2 forum.

I program and operate multiple sites so I have a big fish to play in this game protecting myself and my users/customers. As such I don't mess around when it comes to website passwords. When I was much younger I kept different passwords for different sites but it quickly became difficult to manage. Instead what I do is I use info from each domain name and mix in set strings.

For example, we are on the domain mr2oc.com. If you pull characters second from the left and second from the right, you'll have 'r' and 'o'. Now, come up with some set strings, for simplicity sake let's take my username, 'Big' and 'Mike'. So now my password for this site would become Big + r + Mike + o = BigrMikeo. Password for google.com would be BigoMikel. Password for Yahoo would be BigaMikeo, and so on.

I use three strings and include upper case, lower case, numbers, and special characters. So now all I have to remember is three strings and they apply to all of my passwords no matter what site I visit (for example, "String1" + r + "String2" + o + "String3") and I will most likely have unique passwords for every site without having to remember individual passwords.

In this case if these hackers who put VerticalScope in their place were to come up with the password that matched my hash in mr2oc's database, either by exact match or by collision, then it wouldn't matter as that password is (highly likely) unique only to this site. The worst they could do is log in as "BigMike" and start threads about how amazing the Pontiac Fiero is. They couldn't access any other site I have an account on.

Some notes...
-- I've heard of some using the background color of each site, or the shape of each site's logo for use in their strings, ...but themes and logos are updated from time to time so you'd have to deal with that. The thought here is that the strings would be truly arbitrary and more difficult to pattern-check.
-- If you want to change your password annually then you could just add the last two digits of the year to one of your strings. So my example password above would become Big16 + r + Mike + o = Big16rMikeo. Then when 2017 rolls around and I try to log in, it will fail, and I'll instantly know, "Oh it's a new year so time to update my password to xxx17xxx.
-- If you have different passwords on the same domain based on different sub domains, then draw part from the sub domain and part from the main domain. For example orders.mysite.com, or forum.mysite.com. Pull characters from 'orders' or 'forum' and so on, so you still have unique passwords even while on the same mysite.com domain.
-- Another option could be to use the top-level domain type: .com, .org, .net, .edu, and so on. Intermix characters from there as well.

Some tips...
--Use high entropy in your strings. Do NOT use any whole words or common phrases and obviously don't use part(s) of your username as I did in the simple example above. If the hacker can see your pattern then obviously she could test it on another site.....and once that is successful then she'd know all your passwords! (This being after she has discovered your password in the first place, which could take decades and decades - More on this below.) Compare the example above, "BigrMikeo" vs. "2hj#rT8so". They both are 9 characters long but if you discovered my password "2hj#rT8so" then you'd probably not notice that the "r" and "o" were derived from the domain name mr2oc.com....yet I'd only have to remember "2hj#" and "T8s" for each and every website I log into. That is a piece of cake and after you've typed it on a keyboard for a few weeks you'll learn muscle memory to quickly log in without trouble.
--To combat the above you could make additional rules where if the domain name is short, say under 5 characters, then use the first and second character. If it is greater than 5 but less than 10 then use the last and first characters. If else then use the last two characters in reverse order. Or if the domain begins with a letter in the first half of the alphabet, then do something different, etc. This adds an excellent level of randomness to your passwords yet with only having to remember 2 or 3 more things.

Once I've come up with my strings, I use this Password Strength Calculator, Strength Test, to be sure they are strong enough going forward. For example my password for this site scores 74.3 bits, my password for Gmail scores 74.9 bits, my bank password scores 74.5 bits, my work password scores 75.2 bits.....and yet I don't have to remember or write down anywhere what the passwords are: I only have to remember three strings and a couple rules and repeat it where ever I go!

To put into perspective what entropy does for a hacker, see this site, Password Checker - Evaluate pass strength, dictionary attack. My mr2oc.com password has a 99% strength, and will take a medium sized botnet "about 2 billion years" to inversely find it through its hash. This is overkill but again I'm responsible for a large number of accounts. After you figure out how long it will take someone to hack your password, then consider what "dr jimbob" wrote here (top answer): cryptography - What's the practical limit for rainbow-table based bruteforce? - Information Security Stack Exchange

Let's say your password takes a medium botnet of 500 machines two years to discover. Based on $0.01/kW-hr and machines consuming 200 watts per hour each, this will cost $175,200 USD to hack your password. And this is only the electricity use, never mind the start-up cost, service cost, cost to manage/operate, building(s), etc... it all adds up!! Sure if you're the POTUSA, $175K is a drop in the bucket for a disgruntled foreign country, which is why the POTUSA probably changes his passwords on a monthly basis..... and this is the point behind changing your passwords in the first place. Let's say this group of 500 machines has invested a solid year and are halfway at cracking your password. They have incurred a bill of $87,600 so far in just electricity. Then on day 366 you change your password. DONE. They will never guess your password because you just changed your hash. They now have to hack again to steal your hash from some incompetent website -- such as this one ran by VerticalScope -- and then start all over at attacking your hash. They just wasted 87-grand for nothing.

So the take-home on when to change your password is based on how long it takes someone to inversely find it through your stolen hash, as well as how often your hashes are being stolen in the first place (read: try to avoid accounts on crappy sites such as those operated by VerticalScope!). If your password takes an elite team 10 years to hack, then you'd want to change your password at least once every 9.9 years. Of course there are arguments that when we calculate time required to hack we are basing this on current-day technology. My password of 2 billion years might only take 100 years to hack....because in 100 years we'll likely have computers many, many times faster than today. But again, this is why you use different passwords for every website because even after they discover your password they are stuck with a password that will only work on whatever website it was stolen from.

The ball is truly in your court with regards to how safe you want to live on the web. While it's true that once my pattern is identified & can be used to log into any site I have an account with, my password must first be known, and since this requires an estimated "2-billion years" to discover, it is safe to say I'll never need to change any of my passwords for the rest of my life (baring some massive security discovery or some mathematically genius programming that renders everything we know about hashes irrelevant overnight).

Sorry, I probably rambled here but I am passionate when it comes to internet security and I hope this information has helped at least 1 person in their journey to having a more safe and secure experience on the internet.

Regards,
BigMike

Last edited by BigMike; June 19th, 2016 at 16:10. Reason: added some more info
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old June 19th, 2016, 16:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR2 Admin View Post
Hello all,

Over the next few days...

Thanks all,

Helena
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR2 Admin View Post
Unfortunately the article...

Thank you so much

~ Glenda
I just realized "MR2 Admin", the same account with member number 218226, is being used by at least two different humans. A simple Google search reveals a "Lee", an "AS", a "Jeff", a "KN", a "GP", a "GC", plus probably others, all using the same account.

And you wonder why you guys got hacked????? Of all the forums I operate, having multiple people use the same account is actually against our security policy.

I am curious, since I've never met this team at any west coast MR2 meet, what year MR2 and with what engine do all these people have? Would be nice to know :-)

I'll start:
My name is Michael and I have a SC14 and e-Manage Blue-powered 4A-GZE with C60 6-speed in a 1987 Panda White MR2. Earlier this year it dynoed 200 wheel HP and since then it is now closer to 225 WHP. I am planning to return to the dyno after we run Buttonwillow at the end of July. I have owned this car since Jan, 1999 and it currently has 313,822 miles on the chassis. Here is a picture of it at Laguna Seca last December:




I'm sure all the MR2 Admins above have MR2s, so to not clutter this page, I'd just like to ask Helena and Glenda to please share with us how mr2oc.com is more than just another revenue stream:

Helena: What year MR2 do you own, how long have you owned it, and what mods have you done to it?
Glenda: What year MR2 do you own, how long have you owned it, and what mods have you done to it?

Feel free to share pictures. Looking forward to learning about your MR2s!

Regards,
BigMike
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old June 19th, 2016, 19:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike View Post
"...I'm sure all the MR2 Admins above have MR2s, so to not clutter this page, I'd just like to ask Helena and Glenda to please share with us how mr2oc.com is more than just another revenue stream..."

"...Feel free to share pictures. Looking forward to learning about your MR2s!"
Boom, in your face big business, but seriously thanks Big Mike for the quick password lesson. I've kept very important passwords different than forum passwords, but this really upped my level of understanding password strength & logic.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old June 21st, 2016, 13:45
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Heya guys,

I know this is a big PITA and looks bad but bear with us so we can help all the users get back online. WE had very little info to work with at first and focused on the community security first hence the push to update passwords network wide.

I am not here to debate the cause and effect but I can assure you we have made corrections and locked down sites so we can move forward.

If anybody is locked out due to an older email or can not get access have them send in ONE single ticket here so we can fix their account.
MR2 Owners Club Message Board - Contact Us

Last I checked we had 6k tickets or so and the full support staff and additional help has been brought in. It could take a day or two but if there is a mod, admin, Vendor or VIP locked out PM me also.

Onward and upward.

Jeff M
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old June 21st, 2016, 14:02
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@Big Mike

We might not have an MR2 but we are enthusiasts. We also attend various events throughout the year for all our sites and love our communities.

Here is a quick short list of the events, rallies and cars I have or have owned.

Gold Rush Rally 3 times:
- SRT 8 Team Griswold - Chicago to LA route 66 then GR1 on the PCH - 2 weeks on the road
- General ZR1 - General Lee Corvette ZR1: YEEEE HAAAAW!
- Bandit R8 - Smokey and the Bandit Edition Audi R8
- Yellow Bullet Nationals - yearly

- 8 or so fox body Mustangs - 85-93
- 06 Z06 - headers tune
- 03 Cobra Kenne Bell 2.2 630 RWHP
- 96 Cobra Vert - built vortech
- 06 SRT8 Jeep - bolt ones
- 14 Fiat Abarth - current - bolt ons
- 86 Honda Civic Si
- Various mid 90's F150's lightings to work trucks
- 240SX unmolested





This is what I had on this PM, added more to my Garage:
http://www.mr2oc.com/garage.php?do=editvehicle&v=2354


Thanks in advance and feel free to jump on a call if you have any other questions.

Jeff M
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old June 21st, 2016, 15:26
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Originally Posted by AG Jeff View Post
Heya guys,

I know this is a big PITA and looks bad but bear with us so we can help all the users get back online. WE had very little info to work with at first and focused on the community security first hence the push to update passwords network wide.

I am not here to debate the cause and effect but I can assure you we have made corrections and locked down sites so we can move forward.

If anybody is locked out due to an older email or can not get access have them send in ONE single ticket here so we can fix their account.
MR2 Owners Club Message Board - Contact Us

Last I checked we had 6k tickets or so and the full support staff and additional help has been brought in. It could take a day or two but if there is a mod, admin, Vendor or VIP locked out PM me also.

Onward and upward.

Jeff M
I think you are missing the real issue here. Yes it's a PITA to change our passwords but that's just what we have to do when your server gets hacked. All we can do is ask that you improve your security so that your server does not get hacked again.

My problem is your new requirement for very strong passwords that expire every year. Yes, that is one way of ensuring that we, as users, do not reuse passwords between different sites but it really does not address the problem of bad server security. If your servers get hacked again, the strength of our passwords is unimportant. We will have to change our passwords again because you can't assume passwords are good enough after a hack, you just have to change them. Our strong passwords will not prevent us from having to change passwords. Our strong passwords will not prevent your servers from getting hacked.

All strong passwords will achieve is that we will be inconvenienced by having to remember the new password. Strong passwords will also prevent us from reusing passwords. That's a nice goal but you are not my mother. I don't need you to tell me what passwords I can or cannot reuse. I have a simple method of creating and remembering simple passwords for all my low priority sites. Your new rules prevent me from using that method, and even if it did not, it will expire in a year. I have a different method of remembering all my high priority passwords and this site does not merit being included with all my high priority sites.

Essentially you have just demanded that I treat MR2OC as if it was as important as BankOfAmerica. It is just not that important and your new rules are an annoyance I do not want.

The new rules are just a show intended to distract us from the real issue of whether your server security is strong or not.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old June 22nd, 2016, 08:07
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Just posting this here as a cautionary tale. It's all fun and games until you lose access to your account (on the day that I was going to update my password). I sent a couple emails to the admins and never heard anything back. So now I have created a new account so that I can post in this thread so hopefully an admin will see this.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old June 22nd, 2016, 14:31
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Originally Posted by PrometheusX View Post
Just posting this here as a cautionary tale. It's all fun and games until you lose access to your account (on the day that I was going to update my password). I sent a couple emails to the admins and never heard anything back. So now I have created a new account so that I can post in this thread so hopefully an admin will see this.
PM me your info and user/email

I will set it up for ya.

Ques are backed up bad.

Jeff M
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