2GR-FE stock ECU has been hacked and the immobilizer can be removed! - Page 27 - MR2 Owners Club Message Board
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post #521 of 567 (permalink) Old December 18th, 2016, 10:34 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jakedasnake View Post
Also figured I'd throw this up here. Curious to see anyone else's 1/4 mile times this was my first time with the mr2 and on regular street tires. I'm curious to see what I could do with the extra rpms from this upgraded Ecu. If I remember correctly I was shifting right near the finish line, this should put me in a nice spot passing the finish now!
Your current time slip is actually on the low end of what people are getting with the stock 2GR and 4.2 final gearing, i am curious what you get with the modified ECU, i would expect it to get a bit better from being able to hold a lower gear for longer. i suspect 0.1 or 0.2s better.


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This is really cool Mark! May get my interest piqued in more 3S based cars. My MR2 will never go V6, but I just got another alltrac....hmmm....
you would not be the first one to start an alltrac project with a 2gr but as far as i know nobody has finished one yet. just hit me up when you need the info there's a combination of transfer case bits that work to give the 2GR an AWD transfer case that fits.
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post #522 of 567 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2016, 10:24
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Well dang I gotta work on that then lol. I deff cant wait to get back to the track it was my first attempt only got 3 runs that night so I'm sure I could have bettered my time I was just happy to see 12's1

Any videos of the supercharger setup running? The thought keeps running through my mind about going this route but I'm really happy with my setup now!

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post #523 of 567 (permalink) Old December 27th, 2016, 15:59 Thread Starter
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I don't have videos with the supercharger running at the moment, the ground is just too cold around here to get on it.

On a side note, Eric from australia helped me get this document together for you guys on pairing the 2gr-fe immobilizer on the early camry ECU. Constructive feedback would be appreciated: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/2G...%20pairing.pdf

Thanks!
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post #524 of 567 (permalink) Old December 27th, 2016, 17:20
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Glad I could help the cause!

For those curious, TRD Aurion wrecks sell between 5-8K AUD. However they are running thin as there was only ever 660ish made
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post #525 of 567 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 11:45
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more on the VVT-I angles:

Here's the intake VVT-I angle table, notice how above 6250 the cams start advancing again?


The exhaust cam angles have a similar thing going on with them.
Thinking out loud here... is 0 the minimum value (mechanical limit of the VVTI perhaps?), or are negative values possible? Since a small advance at the top end is shown to reduce torque, I'm wondering if going a few degrees of retard might improve it, especially at RPM levels above the factory rev limit. May not be possible, just a thought.

Second question, have you made any progress on adjusting the throttle sensitivity? I have only driven a 2GR swapped MR2 once, and only briefly so I didn't have time to get used to it, but it definitely seemed sensitive. I'm sure I can get used to it, but if that is something that can be adjusted I for one would appreciate it.


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post #526 of 567 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 22:01 Thread Starter
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Thinking out loud here... is 0 the minimum value (mechanical limit of the VVTI perhaps?), or are negative values possible? Since a small advance at the top end is shown to reduce torque, I'm wondering if going a few degrees of retard might improve it, especially at RPM levels above the factory rev limit. May not be possible, just a thought.

Second question, have you made any progress on adjusting the throttle sensitivity? I have only driven a 2GR swapped MR2 once, and only briefly so I didn't have time to get used to it, but it definitely seemed sensitive. I'm sure I can get used to it, but if that is something that can be adjusted I for one would appreciate it.
zero is not the mechanical limit but it is the limit of the tune. the map uses 8 bit unsigned integers (positive numbers only from 0-255)

The throttle relationship can be changed but it's a bit complicated. i haven't investigated it much but there are two 2D maps that map throttle position vs RPM to a torque demand then there are two maps that seem to map that torque demand vs RPM again and result in a throttle opening angle.

The torque demand intermediate appears to mostly be used for shift scheduling and possibly a few other spots that i can't figure out.

I suspect the two maps have to do with if you're in drive vs park or neutral they are pretty similar except one map seems to not want to open the throttle all the way but the bottom 80% of the pedal is the same.

Personally i think the throttle mapping is nice but keep in mind it is also affected by the pedal mounting position. I'm not sure what the setup was on the car you drove. there's also the fact that I've been driving a 2GR MR2 for over 8 years now so maybe I've just gotten used to it.
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post #527 of 567 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 22:12
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Ahh, that's too bad. Seems like there could be some power there, but sounds like no easy way to tap it.

The car I drove was a friends here in Bozeman who did the swap using your kit ~5 years ago. But, I only drove it for a few minutes, so I didn't really have a chance to get used to it at all. Could also be that I just wasn't used to all that torque

Mainly I have just had the experience of jumping in a modern drive-by-wire car (usually a rental), and feeling like 75% of the throttle happens in the first 25% of the pedal travel, presumably done to "make it feel sporty" or something. That non-linear feeling is what bothers me.


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post #528 of 567 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 22:47 Thread Starter
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Ahh, that's too bad. Seems like there could be some power there, but sounds like no easy way to tap it.

The car I drove was a friends here in Bozeman who did the swap using your kit ~5 years ago. But, I only drove it for a few minutes, so I didn't really have a chance to get used to it at all. Could also be that I just wasn't used to all that torque

Mainly I have just had the experience of jumping in a modern drive-by-wire car (usually a rental), and feeling like 75% of the throttle happens in the first 25% of the pedal travel, presumably done to "make it feel sporty" or something. That non-linear feeling is what bothers me.
The throttle pedal holder hasn't changed since the first production run so you drove the same setup then.

The throttle mapping is actually pretty conservative but the throttle bodies on these DBW cars are pretty big compared to older cable driven throttles so they do react quickly. it's a little late here for me to get into too many details but here's the data. do note that the axes are very non linear:


how to read the above chart, let's say you're at 1600RPM and you give it 45% pedal position: you'll get a torque request of 8230 from the first table which will then result in 47.2% throttle opening based on the 2nd table. at higher RPM, let's say 5200RPM and the same 45% pedal position you'll get a torque request of 8896 which will map to 45.5% if you go down to a 20% pedal position at 2000RPM you get a throttle opening of 21.0%. I might work on the math to make this more readable at some point but now you have all the data to look at it yourself if you want to.

as you can see there's really no big secrets there. that jumpy feeling from most DBW cars these days has more to do with the transmission gearing than anything else. they want them to "feel" fast because people buy based on that.
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post #529 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 11:17
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Interesting. I got to playing with that data a little bit last night, and noticed that shape of the torque demand curve at full throttle is extremely close to the actual torque that you see on dyno graphs. A scale factor of 1/44 seems to turn those numbers into the wheel torque numbers we are used to seeing on swaps. This may be not surprising, but I found it interesting none the less.

Question: Is there a 100% pedal = 100% throttle override of some sort? Was wondering since those maps only go to 95 (assuming that is in fact 95%). If not, the following may apply:

What I noticed is, because the torque demand map follows the torque curve of the engine, it doesn't follow the last "max torque" column of the throttle output map. Now, I did this with linear interpolations so it may not be quite right, but it appears that the 95.5% pedal position maps to about 91-92% throttle across most of the RPM range (there is some variation). But the last 6400RPM point only maps to 87%.

Now, I know we are only talking a couple of percent variation, but look at this:

This is the 95% (throttle) torque demand map, and the resulting throttle positions, based on linear interpolation.

Compare that to Ben's dyno which you posted earlier in this thread:


Notice the (roughly) matching dips in the dyno curve and the throttle map at 3500 and 4500 rpm, and the sharp nose-over in power at 6500. Now, the dips in Ben's dyno seem atypical compared to other dynos out there, so maybe it's not a good comparison.

I noticed that my mapping doesn't match with what you posted back in post 102: 2GR-FE stock ECU has been hacked and the immobilizer can be removed! Maybe I am missing something, I may be chasing nothing here, but maybe not...


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post #530 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 13:29 Thread Starter
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I'll have to run the math again. I forgot i had done that math already the first time. maybe that was on a different tune or maybe i was looking at different maps. I'll regenerate something similar with this current data (which is from the rav4 tune i distribute).

The 95% limit vs 100% may just be bad scaling on my part or it may be that 100% is over center on the throttle plate. when i did the AEM ECU i did notice the throttle body can drive the throttle plate a little over 90 degrees to the airflow so you're actually starting to close it again.

Keep in mind everything i show here could be wrong especially when it comes to tables like this that i haven't edited yet. It's all just a bunch of bytes in a file and i have to figure out what bytes mean what based on intuition and testing.

The sharp drop at 6300 (not sure why that dyno says 6500) is due to the soft rev limiter. that disappears when you raise the rev limiter and the steep drop starts at about 6900. but it's entirely possible the motor could benefit from a few percent higher throttle body opening at the top.

I will eventually investigate this. my higher priority goal right now is figuring out the fuel injector sizing stuff.
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post #531 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 14:42
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I kinda thought the 95% thing could be something like that. At any rate, it seems there shouldn't be any reason for the throttle to be closing as RPM rises.

That dyno is with your hacked ECU.

Where I suspect this could become more important is with mods like cams that change the natural torque curve of the motor.


On a totally different subject, do you have any interest in a 2012 Rav4 ECU to play with? (not that you don't have enough else to do I expect). Mine has broken connectors and a cracked case, so it's not really worth anything, but if you want it to take apart and mess with it's yours.


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post #532 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 14:49
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I realize that this torque-demand throttle mapping is necessary with an auto transmission, but on a manual I consider it to be less than great. The problem is that it is incompatible with clutch operation. I have a 08 corolla manual that has TBW, and it is miserable to shift except under light driving. The problem is that if I have the throttle pedal all the way down, it is impossible to get the throttle closed enough for a smooth shift. The engine will buzz up to the rev limit unless I pre-lift before shifting. If there was code to flatten the map when the clutch is touched, then it might be alright. Maybe the car is supposed to have that and it is just disconnected. At any rate, I do not recommend an exotic throttle map with a manual, unless you have tried it and you are sure that you like it. One more example of a solution looking for a problem to latch onto.
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post #533 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 17:20
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My local dyno still uses an inductive pickup. The rpm doesnt match what my OBD2 and tach were reading. I logged 7180 on the torque app for my dyno and the tach also read over 7000. The way I used an inductive pickup was to put a 5sfe plug wire on the coil and push it down onto the sparkplug. Not the best for accuacy but it was better than no torque reading at all. If I ever get to a different dyno I will hopefully get a laser tach hokup.


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post #534 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 17:59 Thread Starter
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I kinda thought the 95% thing could be something like that. At any rate, it seems there shouldn't be any reason for the throttle to be closing as RPM rises.

That dyno is with your hacked ECU.

Where I suspect this could become more important is with mods like cams that change the natural torque curve of the motor.


On a totally different subject, do you have any interest in a 2012 Rav4 ECU to play with? (not that you don't have enough else to do I expect). Mine has broken connectors and a cracked case, so it's not really worth anything, but if you want it to take apart and mess with it's yours.
I appreciate the offer on the 2012 ECU but i've already got a few here and i don't currently have plans to tackle those until i get some other things figured out on these current tunes.

I agree there's plenty more work to do. but the other thing you can't forget is i can't just go messing with those tables and assume i'm correct. there's dozens of hours involved in making sure the tables do what i think they do and confirming there are no other side interactions. on the TRD ECU i spent over 70 hours searching for everything needed to change the AFR and frankly i'm fairly certain i still don't have everything that affects the target but i was able to get it to behave predictably and i was happy. I'm probably about 120hours into searching for fuel injector sizing stuff at this point.


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I realize that this torque-demand throttle mapping is necessary with an auto transmission, but on a manual I consider it to be less than great. The problem is that it is incompatible with clutch operation. I have a 08 corolla manual that has TBW, and it is miserable to shift except under light driving. The problem is that if I have the throttle pedal all the way down, it is impossible to get the throttle closed enough for a smooth shift. The engine will buzz up to the rev limit unless I pre-lift before shifting. If there was code to flatten the map when the clutch is touched, then it might be alright. Maybe the car is supposed to have that and it is just disconnected. At any rate, I do not recommend an exotic throttle map with a manual, unless you have tried it and you are sure that you like it. One more example of a solution looking for a problem to latch onto.
if you look at the maps above you can see that the negative torque demands still have an open throttle at higher RPM. this helps the RPMs drop slower and eases the load on the synchros when shifting at normal speeds. It also helps the automatic transmissions shift better but is less than ideal for an enthusiast car. but as you said these changes can significantly affect drivability so they have to be tested thoroughly.

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My local dyno still uses an inductive pickup. The rpm doesnt match what my OBD2 and tach were reading. I logged 7180 on the torque app for my dyno and the tach also read over 7000. The way I used an inductive pickup was to put a 5sfe plug wire on the coil and push it down onto the sparkplug. Not the best for accuacy but it was better than no torque reading at all. If I ever get to a different dyno I will hopefully get a laser tach hokup.
you can use an inductive pickup easier than that. just go around the power wire leading to one of the coil packs. the wire going to #1 is extra long specifically for this reason. if it does not pick up properly just do two or three wraps around the pickup and it'll increase the signal strength.

I really enjoy doing this stuff and i'm working on it as fast as i can. it's difficult to read the market to see what is wanted and what isn't. I spent a bunch of time figuring out speed limiters on rav4s because i kept getting pestered about it and I've sold a grand total of 1 ECU since the release of that.
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post #535 of 567 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 18:39
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I appreciate the offer on the 2012 ECU but i've already got a few here and i don't currently have plans to tackle those until i get some other things figured out on these current tunes.

I agree there's plenty more work to do. but the other thing you can't forget is i can't just go messing with those tables and assume i'm correct. there's dozens of hours involved in making sure the tables do what i think they do and confirming there are no other side interactions. on the TRD ECU i spent over 70 hours searching for everything needed to change the AFR and frankly i'm fairly certain i still don't have everything that affects the target but i was able to get it to behave predictably and i was happy. I'm probably about 120hours into searching for fuel injector sizing stuff at this point.

I really enjoy doing this stuff and i'm working on it as fast as i can. it's difficult to read the market to see what is wanted and what isn't. I spent a bunch of time figuring out speed limiters on rav4s because i kept getting pestered about it and I've sold a grand total of 1 ECU since the release of that.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't mean to criticize. Quite the opposite actually, your work on the ECU was one of the things that pushed me over the edge to do the swap. Prior, the hassle of finding a non-immobilized ECU, and then not having a really good way to make any changes to it was just more than I wanted to deal with. I have been dealing with tuning my own 3S for years now, and didn't want to swap engines only to have to swap to a new engine management system and start all over. While the 3S was a perpetual hassle (and still not perfectly tuned in many ways), it was one I was familar with. Better the devil you know...

It sounds like a serious chore to figure anything out in the ECU, and I'm glad to hear you are making progress.


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post #536 of 567 (permalink) Old January 13th, 2017, 00:36 Thread Starter
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Alex, I admit it's a bit easy for me to get on the defensive on this stuff. The thing that many people often overlook is that the "tables" that i find are not marked in any way in the data. nor is the scaling. I've written a bunch of code to find patterns in the data to find this stuff.

I did decode the intermediate step in the throttle map and came up with a direct throttle input to DBW output map and came up with this:


I unfortunately don't remember what source data i used last time. it's possible i was looking at the wrong maps or it's also possible i simply did the math incorrectly.

The dip at 4800/95% is suspicious and so is the dip at 6400/95%

i can certainly change the maps to change the values but it'll take some testing. it's possible that the torque value in between is used for other things so i'll have to carefully monitor the AFRs and make sure it does not glitch there. 4800 is right around the intake runner switch over point and of course 6400RPM is where the stock exhaust cams start to roll over.

it's possible that this is setup like this to help traction control be able to pull power in a more controlled manner which won't matter for us. I'll spend some time on this eventually.

What i would give for an engine dyno cell and a week with no disturbances.

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post #537 of 567 (permalink) Old January 13th, 2017, 01:18
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I unfortunately don't remember what source data i used last time. it's possible i was looking at the wrong maps or it's also possible i simply did the math incorrectly.

The dip at 4800/95% is suspicious and so is the dip at 6400/95%
Looks like we did pretty similar math. I believe that 89 was the value I came up with for 4800, and I know it was 87 at 6400. The 6400 value is the one that I wonder about the most, given what you have said about the ECU continuing to use the last value if it goes off the end of the map. So I am assuming that with an increased rev limit it would be continuing to use that value the rest of the way up.


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post #538 of 567 (permalink) Old January 13th, 2017, 01:39
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I really enjoy doing this stuff and i'm working on it as fast as i can. it's difficult to read the market to see what is wanted and what isn't. I spent a bunch of time figuring out speed limiters on rav4s because i kept getting pestered about it and I've sold a grand total of 1 ECU since the release of that.
Speaking for myself here, I can say that I'm quite sure I will eventually buy one of your tunes. There's two things holding me back from buying it right now. First off I'm still pondering about super- or turbocharging my engine. Second is that at the moment you still seem to be making progress at tuning these ecu's and there will be an even better tune in the future.
Buying multiple iterations isn't going to be cheap, especially since I'm in Europe so shipping and customs can have a large impact on price. Unfortunately for me, the dollar/euro conversion rate no longer makes up for this as it did a few years ago.

Please know your work is highly valued and it is part of what keeps this engine interesting for me, as there's always new developments and relatively easy ways to make improvements.

I can see your frustration though, and I'm also a bit surprised that you sold so few, as it seems like the best way to get a non-immobilized ECU for anyone doing the swap now.

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post #539 of 567 (permalink) Old January 13th, 2017, 07:40 Thread Starter
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Looks like we did pretty similar math. I believe that 89 was the value I came up with for 4800, and I know it was 87 at 6400. The 6400 value is the one that I wonder about the most, given what you have said about the ECU continuing to use the last value if it goes off the end of the map. So I am assuming that with an increased rev limit it would be continuing to use that value the rest of the way up.
yes, if i have the correct maps which i feel i do, and i also have the complete picture for this control which i'm not 100% sure yes any RPM at 6400RPM or higher and 95% pedal input or higher will use 87 for the DBW position (plus or minus any modifiers i'm missing). since the maximum position is 94.04 there's probably something off with the scaling (or that's where the throttle is fully open) so in theory the throttle could open another 7.5% at the top. Alternately notice how above that 4800RPM the maximum value is 92.1, it's possible that the throttle blade is close enough to the variable intake runner that then optimal opening angle changes at which point 87 is only 5.5% from max opening and going all the way to 94.04 would actually cost horsepower.

There could be 3-5HP hiding there but not 10-20. but as you say, when cams and springs get thrown in this engine then we could be talking more.

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Originally Posted by decipherer View Post
Speaking for myself here, I can say that I'm quite sure I will eventually buy one of your tunes. There's two things holding me back from buying it right now. First off I'm still pondering about super- or turbocharging my engine. Second is that at the moment you still seem to be making progress at tuning these ecu's and there will be an even better tune in the future.
Buying multiple iterations isn't going to be cheap, especially since I'm in Europe so shipping and customs can have a large impact on price. Unfortunately for me, the dollar/euro conversion rate no longer makes up for this as it did a few years ago.

Please know your work is highly valued and it is part of what keeps this engine interesting for me, as there's always new developments and relatively easy ways to make improvements.

I can see your frustration though, and I'm also a bit surprised that you sold so few, as it seems like the best way to get a non-immobilized ECU for anyone doing the swap now.
Yeah, that's a bit of a struggle that i hope you see i try to balance. with the previous upgrade (speed limiter) i offered a free upgrade to anyone that can provide evidence they track their car and an $80 upgrade to anyone else. I'm trying to work out the OBDII upgrade tools to be able to bring this cost down. to program the immobilizer on these i have to open up the ECU which does require a fair bit of work especially once they've been re-sealed. the sealant i use is stickier than toyota's and it makes reopening them an absolute pain. in theory a tune upgrade should be possible over the OBDII port since the immobilizer does not need to be touched, once i get that figured out i hope to get upgrades down to $20 just to cover 10 minutes of my time and packaging supplies to ship the ECU safely. It's been my goal to do my best to never profit from an early adopter a 2nd time or from someone's misfortune. I've had one customer blow up one of these ECUs by powering it incorrectly and i replaced it for just the core charge. I can't afford to make that my official policy but as long as it happens just here and there I'm happy to do my best to provide great after sales support.

Adding international shipping in the mix does complicate things and there's not much i can do about that. I do label rework ECUs as such on the customs forms so you should not get charged any import taxes (since you've already imported them once).

In short, yes i will do my best to continue bringing improvements to these tunes but i hope you realize that i will also do my best to support existing customers.
Gouky is offline  
post #540 of 567 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2017, 10:01
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I do see that you support existing customers

20 dollar upgrades sounds good! This is probably beyond the scope, but it would be great to be able to buy a tune from you and flash it at home, using software and a USB-to-OBDII cable. That could really bring cost and downtime down to a minimum. By cost I mean shipping cost, I would not expect to pay less for the tune. But besides technical challenges I guess it would be all too easy to bypass you completely then..
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